Ron Paul vs Donald Trump - Stefan Moleyneux discussion

[juleswin]

3 min clip from Stefan, very fascinating discussion about the effectiveness of the southern border wall. Please just watch till the end, you will thank me later for it.

Also, did Ron Paul ever propose building a southern border wall like Trump? Oh well, watch and discuss.

 

[dannno]

Meh, a few days ago Molyneux asked an eastern European if he thought their country would consider removing the socialist policies that support immigration, and strike at the root of the problem, because in Serbia I think it was they set aside a bunch of land for Muslim immigrants - but they wouldn't be able to collect any welfare there - and turned out none of the immigrants wanted to move there..none... and the guy agreed that was very unlikely they would end their socialist policies and so they would have to use force to keep them out.

Here is a nice little 15 second video that he put out the other day that makes a good point about immigration to socialist countries as well:



Ultimately they both seem to agree on the issue, I'm not sure what the big complaint is. I don't think Ron Paul is completely opposed to a wall, he just knows that there are more effective ways to deal with the problem - they both seem to agree so I'm not sure what the issue is.

If I go back and watch the original video that Molyneux posted, will I find that there was a lot of audio editing done to the version you posted?

 

[Feeding the Abscess]

Meh, a few days ago Molyneux asked an eastern European if he thought their country would consider removing the socialist policies that support immigration, and strike at the root of the problem, because in Serbia I think it was they set aside a bunch of land for Muslim immigrants - but they wouldn't be able to collect any welfare there - and turned out none of the immigrants wanted to move there..none... and the guy agreed that was very unlikely they would end their socialist policies and so they would have to use force to keep them out.

Here is a nice little 15 second video that he put out the other day that makes a good point about immigration to socialist countries as well:



Ultimately they both seem to agree on the issue, I'm not sure what the big complaint is. I don't think Ron Paul is completely opposed to a wall, he just knows that there are more effective ways to deal with the problem - they both seem to agree so I'm not sure what the issue is.

If I go back and watch the original video that Molyneux posted, will I find that there was a lot of audio editing done to the version you posted?

If those who would otherwise agree that the welfare state should be wholly ended instead take the position of increasing government enforcement of immigration laws, the chances of ending the welfare state goes from being a fringe issue to not even part of the discussion.

Going into a negotiation with the intent of getting a dollar and asking for 25 cents is a losing proposition.

This is to say nothing of the incentives politicians face, and the effects those incentives have on the implementation of policy.

 

[CPUd]

 

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

I've warmed to Molyneux recently, and I don't mind Trump, but someone needs to call Stef out on his ambivalence towards Ron Paul and his absolute adulation of "the Donald".

 

[silverhandorder]

I've warmed to Molyneux recently, and I don't mind Trump, but someone needs to call Stef out on his ambivalence towards Ron Paul and his absolute adulation of "the Donald".

He commented on it. He did defend Ron back in the day and he always spoke nicely of Ron.

The difference between Ron and Donald now is that the Donald is much closer to power. There is a lot more lies being spread about Trump and Stefan respects Trump for getting this far.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I've warmed to Molyneux recently, and I don't mind Trump, but someone needs to call Stef out on his ambivalence towards Ron Paul and his absolute adulation of "the Donald".

I don't see how teh Donald is any worse than the Buchananites-who the Paleocons typicaly are fanboys of. ~shrugs~

 

[Wilf]

Meh, a few days ago Molyneux asked an eastern European if he thought their country would consider removing the socialist policies that support immigration, and strike at the root of the problem, because in Serbia I think it was they set aside a bunch of land for Muslim immigrants - but they wouldn't be able to collect any welfare there - and turned out none of the immigrants wanted to move there..none... and the guy agreed that was very unlikely they would end their socialist policies and so they would have to use force to keep them out.

Here is a nice little 15 second video that he put out the other day that makes a good point about immigration to socialist countries as well:



Ultimately they both seem to agree on the issue, I'm not sure what the big complaint is. I don't think Ron Paul is completely opposed to a wall, he just knows that there are more effective ways to deal with the problem - they both seem to agree so I'm not sure what the issue is.

If I go back and watch the original video that Molyneux posted, will I find that there was a lot of audio editing done to the version you posted?

You do recognize that Molyneaux has the most contradictory points on immigration. It seems that he that he pondering to the fox news crowd type voter to make money not steering them towards the concepts of liberty.

 

[dannno]

You do recognize that Molyneaux has the most contradictory points on immigration.

No, I listen to all of his podcasts now and I don't need doctored up bullshit strawman video to tell me what his views on immigration are.. He does not hold contradictory points on immigration, he's taken hours and hours to go over his positions extensively and I've listened to many of them and pretty much all of them in the last year or so.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

Stefan Molyneux is an imbecile.

http://www.fdrliberated.com/

 

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

No, I listen to all of his podcasts now and I don't need doctored up bullshit strawman video to tell me what his views on immigration are.. He does not hold contradictory points on immigration, he's taken hours and hours to go over his positions extensively and I've listened to many of them and pretty much all of them in the last year or so.

At the very least, he's changed his mind. Which is fine, so did I on immigration, but squaring his previous opinions with his current ones is quite the task. He seems incapable of saying "I was wrong".

The video isn't a strawman either, it's entirely in context.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

At the very least, he's changed his mind. Which is fine, so did I on immigration, but squaring his previous opinions with his current ones is quite the task. He seems incapable of saying "I was wrong".

The video isn't a strawman either, it's entirely in context.

...which says a lot.

Check out the link I posted.

 

[dannno]

At the very least, he's changed his mind. Which is fine, so did I on immigration, but squaring his previous opinions with his current ones is quite the task. He seems incapable of saying "I was wrong".

The video isn't a strawman either, it's entirely in context.

Then you haven't been listening to his latest podcasts on the topic..and yes it is absolutely a strawman.

Immigration currently exists as a government program.. Most immigrants come here and are on government assistance. They are committing aggression against current citizens without paying into the system. Immigration control prevents that aggression from happening, using less aggression - additionally - immigration brings in more people who will vote for more welfare and socialism, which is even more aggression. He is picking the lesser of the evils and not abandoning his original position in any way, shape or form. He has no issue with immigration in a voluntary society.

 

[dannno]

Stefan Molyneux is an imbecile.

http://www.fdrliberated.com/

No, he's actually very intelligent. The people who who don't like him are often incapable of reasoning well, or just don't take the time to understand his arguments.

 

[dannno]

...which says a lot.

He admits he is wrong when he finds evidence and reasoning that shows he was wrong, not when some random pseudo-intellectuals on the internet who don't take the time to understand his positions say he is wrong.

I don't agree with him all of the time, but most of his stuff is pretty solid and well reasoned.

 

[Wilf]

He admits he is wrong when he finds evidence and reasoning that shows he was wrong, not when some random pseudo-intellectuals on the internet who don't take the time to understand his positions say he is wrong.

I don't agree with him all of the time, but most of his stuff is pretty solid and well reasoned.

Molyneux is a pseudo-intellectual. I mean David Gordon from the Mises institutes did criticized his work and it got him kicked out the Rockwell's circle.

 

[FindLiberty]

Yea, something is wrong there; looks like Stef changed his tune 180 degrees.

I sort of recall a "Ron Paul Wall" Molyneux broadcast. Good points on how silly the WALL concept is. Stefan was not fond of RP. I recall the laughing.

-versus-

Donald Trump's wall will be finer and so awesome. Stefan likes Trump, so Trump's wall will be awesome. No laughing. (You must be kidding me!)

The big problem I see is America's "free social aid/healthcare" programs and many
"illegal this or that" laws that create black market opportunity. THAT IS WHAT
ATTRACTS people who want to cross borders. A wall is not going to fix/stop that.
The free everything policy for votes is cancer; it will eventually die and take
everything with it.

POTUS Trump will offer lots of interesting entertainment...

I like both of these guys, a lot.

 

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

Then you haven't been listening to his latest podcasts on the topic..and yes it is absolutely a strawman.

Immigration currently exists as a government program.. Most immigrants come here and are on government assistance. They are committing aggression against current citizens without paying into the system. Immigration control prevents that aggression from happening, using less aggression - additionally - immigration brings in more people who will vote for more welfare and socialism, which is even more aggression. He is picking the lesser of the evils and not abandoning his original position in any way, shape or form. He has no issue with immigration in a voluntary society.

Then why did he argue against the idea that immigrants come for the welfare? Why did he chastise Ron Paul for wanting to build a wall and argue that walls don't work? Why does he chastise supposedly pro-spanking libertarians when asked about his consistency on immigration, as though that has anything to do with his arguments? He was making the very arguments he laughs at (that I agree are laughable). Has he explained why he was wrong about these things?

I agree with Molyneux on immigration; if anything I'm far more right wing than he is, but I don't claim to adhere to the NAP, and I don't care if people think I'm not a libertarian.

 

[dannno]

Then why did he argue against the idea that immigrants come for the welfare? Why did he chastise Ron Paul for wanting to build a wall and argue that walls don't work? Why does he chastise supposedly pro-spanking libertarians when asked about his consistency on immigration, as though that has anything to do with his arguments? He was making the very arguments he laughs at (that I agree are laughable). Has he explained why he was wrong about these things?

I agree with Molyneux on immigration; if anything I'm far more right wing than he is, but I don't claim to adhere to the NAP, and I don't care if people think I'm not a libertarian.

When did Stefan ever claim he was never wrong and has never changed his mind? In fact he has said the opposite.. he changes his mind when he runs into reason and evidence to the contrary. For example, long, long ago before the podcast he supported multi-culturalism. He is ok with multi-culturism now to the extent that it is voluntary, he says that cultures can potentially assimilate, slowly, over time, potentially in a healthy way, but that multi-culturalism should not be something to promote because it usually ends up badly. He has also changed his mind on race and IQ. If he did ever argue that immigrants don't come here because of welfare or that a wall is a bad idea, then in a sense perhaps he has changed his mind on those - although I will have to take some time later to watch that video because I have a hard time believing that he really made the argument that immigrants don't come here for welfare but it is certainly possible.

Why people make stupid youtube videos that show he changed his mind on something and claim he is contradictory when he has changed his mind based on reason and evidence is kinda ridiculous.

He has said some really great things about Ron Paul - I am not totally happy with his treatment of Ron Paul at times, and I don't intend on supporting Trump - but in general he is a great source of philosophy discussions and research based podcasts and he does do a good job of supporting his views with reason.

I mean, a wall does help curb immigration, but it isn't the end all solution. So that means you can make a valid argument in both directions, which he has.

 

[tod evans]

3 min clip from Stefan, very fascinating discussion about the effectiveness of the southern border wall. Please just watch till the end, you will thank me later for it.

Also, did Ron Paul ever propose building a southern border wall like Trump? Oh well, watch and discuss.

Against my better judgement, (I detest Molyneux!) I did as you asked....

You owe me 3 minutes of my life back.