Rick Perry says Trump (and Obama) were 'ordained by God' to be president
- Thread starter Zippyjuan
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Anti Globalist
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Personally if I were God I wouldn't want to be responsible for anybody that becomes president.
Sonny Tufts
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I agree that's probably what Perry meant, but I don't get the impression that a majority of Christians think God would be so cruel as to establish Hitler and the Holocaust.
tfurrh
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Worth a copy/paste
How do we know that God always controls everything? My answer is that we know this because the Bible teaches it. It teaches it by direct statements and by clear and sufficient implication. Let me give you five clusters of texts or kinds of texts.
How God Works
First, God works all things according to his will. Here’s Ephesians 1:11: “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Let me say it again. He works all things according to the counsel of his will. I think that means he always controls everything. There’s my answer.
We could just stop now. When it says all things, there’s no reason to assume any exceptions here (I don’t think). Sometimes people say, “Well, no, no, no. He’s talking about predestination of Christians.” Now when somebody says that, you need to pause and think about the words “he’s just talking about.” They are so vague. They can’t support the point the person is trying to make without more careful attention.
When you give more careful attention, what you realize is that Paul is using a general statement about God’s working everything according to the counsel of his will as a support for a specific statement about predestination. We all know that a specific application of a general statement doesn’t nullify or limit the truth of the general statement.
For example, if I say my friend (who knows how to drive every kind of car) drove an electric car without instruction the first time he got into it, you wouldn’t think he knows how to only drive electric cars. The fact that we’re talking about an electric car is simply pointing out that it’s an illustration of his ability to drive every kind of car. That illustration doesn’t nullify the fact that he can drive every kind of car. My point was to say he can drive every kind of car, and here’s an illustration of it.
When Paul says, “God, who works all things according to the counsel of his will, specifically predestined us,” it doesn’t mean “He really doesn’t work all things according to the counsel of his will; he only predestined us.” That’s exactly the opposite of the way Paul is arguing. We need to think carefully when people make vague statements, trying to limit a context when the context is clearly expansive.
He’s Over All
Second, God governs all human plans and acts.
Proverbs 16:9 says, “The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” Just a general statement.
Proverbs 20:24 reads, “A man’s steps are from the Lord; how then can man understand his way?” A general statement about all his steps.
Proverbs 16:33: “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” Human beings decide all kinds of ways to make a decision. They try rolling dice, and they draw lots, and they put out pieces of cloth on the ground — whatever. The point here is whatever means they use, it’s going to be God’s will in the end. Every decision is from the Lord.
Proverbs 19:21: “Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.” Whatever humans anywhere in the world are planning and doing, what stands is God’s will.
Jeremiah 10:23: “I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.”
All of those passages sweepingly say that everything that human beings do is, in the end, the will of God.
The Causer
Third, behind human acts, the biblical writers assume God. This is amazing. Here’s Amos 3:6: “Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?”
Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it? The answer is no. Well, what’s the implication? The implication is the biblical writer assumes every kind of event that comes to a city is ultimately from the Lord. He raises it with a rhetorical question that can’t be explained any other way. That’s his mindset.
This same thing happens in Lamentations 3:37: “Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?” In other words, the only explanation the biblical writer sees behind anything being commanded is that the Lord ultimately brought it to pass.
If the Lord Wills
Fourth, this one is sweeping like the first one. God’s sovereign will governs all daily events. Here is James 4:13–15: “Come now, you who say, ‘Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit’ — yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say” — this is what the biblical inspired writer James says we ought to say — “‘If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.’”
What’s the point of that? That means “this or that” — anything you do — you should go into it saying, “I’m not in control here.” It’s arrogant, he says, to think you’re in control. God is in control.
Permitting or Controlling?
Lastly, God’s permission for Satan or man to act is nevertheless part of God’s ultimate design and final control. I’m trying to respond here to someone who says, “Well, God doesn’t control everything, but he permits lots of things.” I’m saying that’s right. He certainly does permit lots of things. How should we understand an all-knowing God with perfect foreknowledge permitting something in his infinite wisdom?
Here’s what Jesus says in Luke 22:31: “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” Notice he does not say, “If you have turned again,” but “when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”
In other words, “Yes, I’m going to give Satan permission to sift you like wheat, and I know it’s going to involve three denials. I know you’re going to turn, and I know that the purpose of bringing you back according to my prayer is that you might strengthen your brothers.”
Even in situations where God is permitting, he is permitting by design. When you permit something and you know what it’s going to do and you know all of its outcomes and you go ahead and permit it, you permit it wisely if you’re God — and then it wisely fits into the overall pattern of what you are planning and doing.
Let me end with a statement and a question. The statement is that human beings are responsible, accountable, praiseworthy, or blameworthy for what they do. God’s sovereignty does not diminish human accountability. That’s the statement.
The question is, which world would you rather live in? One where humans or Satan or chance govern what happens to you? Or one where an infinitely good, infinitely wise, infinitely powerful God works everything together for the good of those who trust him and for his glory?
https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/does-god-control-all-things-all-the-time
How do we know that God always controls everything? My answer is that we know this because the Bible teaches it. It teaches it by direct statements and by clear and sufficient implication. Let me give you five clusters of texts or kinds of texts.
How God Works
First, God works all things according to his will. Here’s Ephesians 1:11: “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Let me say it again. He works all things according to the counsel of his will. I think that means he always controls everything. There’s my answer.
We could just stop now. When it says all things, there’s no reason to assume any exceptions here (I don’t think). Sometimes people say, “Well, no, no, no. He’s talking about predestination of Christians.” Now when somebody says that, you need to pause and think about the words “he’s just talking about.” They are so vague. They can’t support the point the person is trying to make without more careful attention.
When you give more careful attention, what you realize is that Paul is using a general statement about God’s working everything according to the counsel of his will as a support for a specific statement about predestination. We all know that a specific application of a general statement doesn’t nullify or limit the truth of the general statement.
For example, if I say my friend (who knows how to drive every kind of car) drove an electric car without instruction the first time he got into it, you wouldn’t think he knows how to only drive electric cars. The fact that we’re talking about an electric car is simply pointing out that it’s an illustration of his ability to drive every kind of car. That illustration doesn’t nullify the fact that he can drive every kind of car. My point was to say he can drive every kind of car, and here’s an illustration of it.
When Paul says, “God, who works all things according to the counsel of his will, specifically predestined us,” it doesn’t mean “He really doesn’t work all things according to the counsel of his will; he only predestined us.” That’s exactly the opposite of the way Paul is arguing. We need to think carefully when people make vague statements, trying to limit a context when the context is clearly expansive.
He’s Over All
Second, God governs all human plans and acts.
Proverbs 16:9 says, “The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” Just a general statement.
Proverbs 20:24 reads, “A man’s steps are from the Lord; how then can man understand his way?” A general statement about all his steps.
Proverbs 16:33: “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” Human beings decide all kinds of ways to make a decision. They try rolling dice, and they draw lots, and they put out pieces of cloth on the ground — whatever. The point here is whatever means they use, it’s going to be God’s will in the end. Every decision is from the Lord.
Proverbs 19:21: “Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.” Whatever humans anywhere in the world are planning and doing, what stands is God’s will.
Jeremiah 10:23: “I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.”
All of those passages sweepingly say that everything that human beings do is, in the end, the will of God.
The Causer
Third, behind human acts, the biblical writers assume God. This is amazing. Here’s Amos 3:6: “Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?”
Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it? The answer is no. Well, what’s the implication? The implication is the biblical writer assumes every kind of event that comes to a city is ultimately from the Lord. He raises it with a rhetorical question that can’t be explained any other way. That’s his mindset.
This same thing happens in Lamentations 3:37: “Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?” In other words, the only explanation the biblical writer sees behind anything being commanded is that the Lord ultimately brought it to pass.
If the Lord Wills
Fourth, this one is sweeping like the first one. God’s sovereign will governs all daily events. Here is James 4:13–15: “Come now, you who say, ‘Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit’ — yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say” — this is what the biblical inspired writer James says we ought to say — “‘If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.’”
What’s the point of that? That means “this or that” — anything you do — you should go into it saying, “I’m not in control here.” It’s arrogant, he says, to think you’re in control. God is in control.
Permitting or Controlling?
Lastly, God’s permission for Satan or man to act is nevertheless part of God’s ultimate design and final control. I’m trying to respond here to someone who says, “Well, God doesn’t control everything, but he permits lots of things.” I’m saying that’s right. He certainly does permit lots of things. How should we understand an all-knowing God with perfect foreknowledge permitting something in his infinite wisdom?
Here’s what Jesus says in Luke 22:31: “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” Notice he does not say, “If you have turned again,” but “when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”
In other words, “Yes, I’m going to give Satan permission to sift you like wheat, and I know it’s going to involve three denials. I know you’re going to turn, and I know that the purpose of bringing you back according to my prayer is that you might strengthen your brothers.”
Even in situations where God is permitting, he is permitting by design. When you permit something and you know what it’s going to do and you know all of its outcomes and you go ahead and permit it, you permit it wisely if you’re God — and then it wisely fits into the overall pattern of what you are planning and doing.
Let me end with a statement and a question. The statement is that human beings are responsible, accountable, praiseworthy, or blameworthy for what they do. God’s sovereignty does not diminish human accountability. That’s the statement.
The question is, which world would you rather live in? One where humans or Satan or chance govern what happens to you? Or one where an infinitely good, infinitely wise, infinitely powerful God works everything together for the good of those who trust him and for his glory?
https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/does-god-control-all-things-all-the-time
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Anti Globalist
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Did God also plan on Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer to become serial killers?
Swordsmyth
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I'd say he had a plan for if they did or if they didn't.
tfurrh
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From a Christian perspective what's the biggest no-no anyone could possibly come up with? Perhaps killing God? Well that's exactly what people did, and the Bible tells us God planned it.
The idea of a sovereign God isn't a fringe whacko doctrine. In fact quite the opposite. SuperfluousMan is right that it's been predominant throughout church history.
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Swordsmyth
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That was a special case to make the atonement for all mankind and it was handled by placing people who were sure to do what they did in the right places.
GOD must also allow free choice and the random results that generates in order to test who belongs in heaven and who doesn't, he must also allow the devil to control somethings in order to supply the proper temptations for the test.
tfurrh
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Says who?
Swordsmyth
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GOD.
tfurrh
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Where?
Swordsmyth
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[h=3]Luke
Chapter 13[/h] 1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
[h=1]Revelation 2:5[/h] “Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.”
King James Version (KJV)
[h=1]Jeremiah 26:3[/h] “If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.”
King James Version (KJV)
[h=1]Jeremiah 18:8[/h] “If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.”
King James Version (KJV)
[h=1]Jeremiah 26:13[/h] “Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.”
King James Version (KJV)
[h=1]Acts 3:19[/h] “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;”
King James Version (KJV)
[h=1]Jeremiah 42:10[/h] “If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.”
King James Version (KJV)
[h=1]Jeremiah 18:10[/h] “If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.”
King James Version (KJV)
[h=1]Revelation 2:21[/h] “And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.”
King James Version (KJV)
There's lots more.
Superfluous Man
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Yes.
tfurrh
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Swordsmyth said:
Those are verses on repentance. Not God being compelled to allow free will.
How does one repent?
I know where you stand though...and you know where I stand. So not much in the back and forth. I'll say again though that doctrines like providence, predestination, foreordenance, election, and the sovereignty of God are not fringe.
Ya , since I do what is good I have everyones approval .
Zippyjuan
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"Mis-translation" can create problems on whether the Bible is indeed the literal "word of God" when different translation say different things. The books of the Bible underwent many translations passing though many different languages. There are even differences on the height of the Goliath. Some translations put him at nine feet tall while sections found in the Dead Sea Scrolls put him at 6' 9". There have even been disagreements on which books belong in the Bible. Man decided (some claim with the guidance of God).
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