Ratzinger doesn't believe in the Eucharist as RC's teach

Kevin007

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Introduction to Christianity
Josheph Cardinal Ratzinger
p 356-358 c. The question of the resurrected body

Let us start from verse 50 (1Cor15), which seems to me to be
a sort of key to the whole:"I tell you this, bretheren: flesh and blood
cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit
the imperishable." It seems to me that the sentence occupies much the
same position in this text as verse 63 occupies in the eucharistic
chapter 6 of St.Johns Gospel: for these two seemingly widely separated
texts are much more closely related than is apparent at first sight.
There in St. John, it says, just after the real presence of the flesh
and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist has been sharply emphasized;
"It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail." in both
the Johannine and the Pauline texts, it is a question of developing
the Christian realism of "the flesh". In John the realism of the
sacraments, that is, the realism of Jesus' Resurrection and of his
"flesh" that comes to us from it, is emphasized; in "flesh", of the
resurrection of Christians and of the salvation achieved for us in it.
But both passages also contain a sharp counterpoint that emphasizes
Christian realism as realism beyond the physical world, realism of the
Holy Spirit, as opposed to a purely worldly, quasi-physical realism.

Here English cannot fully convey the enigmatic character of the
biblical Greek. In Greek the word soma means something like
"body", but at the same time is also means "the itself".
and this soma can be sarx, that is, "body" in the earthly historical,
and thus chemical-physical terms, can, again, appear definitively
in the guise of a transphysical reality.
In Pauls language "body" and "spirit" are not the opposites; the
opposites are called "physical body" and "spiritual body". We do
not need to try here to pursue the complicated historical and
philosiphical problems posed by this.
One thing at any rate may be fairly clear; both John (6:63) and Paul
(1 Cor 15:50) state with all possible emphasis that the "resurrection
of the flesh", the "resurrection of the body", is not a "resurrection
of physical bodies." Thus from the point of view of modern thought
the Pauline sketch is far less naive than later theological
erudition with its subtle ways of construing how there can be
eternal physical bodies.
To recapitulate, Paul teaches, not the resurrection of physical bodies, but
the resurrection of persons, and this not in the return of the
"fleshly body", that is, the biological structure, an idea he
expressly describes as impossible "the perishable cannot become
imperishable"), but in the different form of the life of the
resurrection, as shown in the risen Lord.}

JohnR
 
Why would I accept that you, not being a Catholic, even understands what Catholicism teaches? I'm sure you think you do, but I doubt it. I'll wait for a Catholic to weigh in, especially since all you did was copy paste.
 
I was A RC for almost 30 years. I know what they believe. I have a RCC Catechism on my desk.
 
I was A RC for almost 30 years. I know what they believe.
From what you post about others, you appear to be the least knowledgeable person of the RCC faith on the forum (not to mention the EOC, SDA, Mormons, etc.)
 
I wonder why he doesn't feel that way anymore...
http://www.adoremus.org/0414PopeFrancis.htmlEucharist II — The Identity of the Church Flows from the Eucharist
General Audience
Wednesday, 12 February 2014

Dear Brothers and Sisters, Good morning.
In the last Catechesis I emphasized how the Eucharist introduces us into real communion with Jesus and His mystery. Now let us ask ourselves several questions that spring from the relationship between the Eucharist that we celebrate and our life, as a Church and as individual Christians.
How do we experience the Eucharist?
When we go to Sunday Mass, how do we live it? Is it only a moment of celebration, an established tradition, an opportunity to find oneself or to feel justified, or is it something more?
There are very specific signals for understanding how we are living this, how we experience the Eucharist; signals that tell us if we are living the Eucharist in a good way or not very well.
The first indicator is our way of looking at or considering others. In the Eucharist, Christ is always renewing His gift of self, which He made on the Cross. His whole life is an act of total sharing of self out of love; thus, He loved to be with His disciples and with the people whom He had a chance to know. This meant for Him sharing in their aspirations, their problems, what stirred their soul and their life. Now we, when participating in Holy Mass, we find ourselves with all sorts of men and women: young people, the elderly, children; poor and well-off; locals and strangers alike; people with their families and people who are alone — But the Eucharist which I celebrate, does it lead me to truly feel they are all like brothers and sisters? Does it increase my capacity to rejoice with those who are rejoicing and cry with those who are crying? Does it urge me to go out to the poor, the sick, the marginalized? Does it help me to recognize in theirs the face of Jesus?
We all go to Mass because we love Jesus and we want to share, through the Eucharist, in His passion and His resurrection. But do we love, as Jesus wishes, those brothers and sisters who are the most needy? For example, in Rome these days we have seen much social discomfort either due to the rain, which has caused so much damage to entire districts, or because of the lack of work, a consequence of the global economic crisis. I wonder, and each one of us should wonder: I who go to Mass, how do I live this? Do I try to help, to approach and pray for those in difficulty? Or am I a little indifferent? Or perhaps do I just want to talk: “did you see how this or that one is dressed?” Sometimes this happens after Mass and it should not! We must concern ourselves with our brothers and sisters who need us because of an illness, a problem. Today, it would do us such good to think of these brothers and sisters of ours who are beset by these problems here in Rome: problems that stem from the grave situation caused by the rain and social instability and unemployment. Let us ask Jesus, whom we receive in the Eucharist, to help us to help them.
A second indication, a very important one, is the grace of feeling forgiven and ready to forgive. At times someone may ask: “Why must one go to Church, given that those who regularly participate in Holy Mass are still sinners like the others?” We have heard it many times! In reality, the one celebrating the Eucharist doesn’t do so because he believes he is or wants to appear better than others, but precisely because he acknowledges that he is always in need of being accepted and reborn by the mercy of God, made flesh in Jesus Christ. If any one of us does not feel in need of the mercy of God, does not see himself as a sinner, it is better for him not to go to Mass! We go to Mass because we are sinners and we want to receive God’s pardon, to participate in the redemption of Jesus, in His forgiveness. The “Confession” which we make at the beginning is not “pro forma,” it is a real act of repentance! I am a sinner and I confess it, this is how the Mass begins! We should never forget that the Last Supper of Jesus took place “on the night He was betrayed” (I Cor 11:23). In the bread and in the wine, which we offer and around which we gather, the gift of Christ’s body and blood is renewed every time for the remission of our sins. We must go to Mass humbly, like sinners, and the Lord reconciles us.
A last valuable indication comes to us from the relationship between the Eucharistic Celebration and the life of our Christian communities. We must always bear in mind that the Eucharist is not something we make; it is not our own commemoration of what Jesus said and did. No. It is precisely an act of Christ! It is Christ who acts there, who is on the altar. It is a gift of Christ, who makes Himself present and gathers us around Him, to nourish us with His Word and with His life. This means that the mission and the very identity of the Church flows from there — from the Eucharist — and from there always takes its shape. A celebration may be flawless on the exterior, very beautiful — but if it does not lead us to encounter Jesus Christ, it is unlikely to bear any kind of nourishment to our heart and our life. Through the Eucharist, however, Christ wishes to enter into our life and permeate it with His grace, so that in every Christian community there may be coherence between liturgy and life.
The heart fills with trust and hope by pondering on Jesus’ words recounted in the Gospel: “he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (Jn 6:54).
Let us live the Eucharist with the spirit of faith, of prayer, of forgiveness, of repentance, of communal joy, of concern for the needy and for the needs of so many brothers and sisters, in the certainty that the Lord will fulfill what He has promised us: eternal life. Amen. So be it!
And during his papacy:
http://www.adoremus.org/0414PopeFrancis.html
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]In his homily, Pope Francis said Jesus provides the food people need, or "rather, he is the living bread that gives life to the world. His body is real food under the species of bread; his blood is real drink under the species of wine."[/FONT]
Someone email him, plz. /shrugs
 
I wonder why he doesn't feel that way anymore...

And during his papacy:
http://www.adoremus.org/0414PopeFrancis.html

Someone email him, plz. /shrugs

My guess is you don't make it up that high unless you first give up having your own views? Anyway, what he may or may not actually believe now doesn't change the fact that the analysis in the OP is sound. At the end of the day what you are eating and drinking at communion isn't physical human flesh and blood. It just isn't. Take some and put it in a Petri dish or under a microscope or through any other analysis and you can see that. When Jesus changed water into wine even those who knew nothing of who He was didn't perceive it as water. Every miracle Jesus ever did had a real physical manifestation. But when it comes to the Eucharist, people are pushed to believe that it must be a physical manifestation even though there is a strong scriptural argument that it is metaphorical and even though at least one of the church fathers explicitly called it a "metaphor." The reverse belief, that the "real presence" is Jesus body and blood becoming bread and wine rather than the other way around at least stands up to scientific scrutiny. Anyway, at the end of the day people believe what they believe.
 
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At the end of the day what you are eating and drinking at communion isn't physical human flesh and blood. It just isn't.

There is truth to that. After receiving the Eucharist we don't have blood dripping down our faces like vampires, we aren't cannibals as the false accusations that go back to antiquity claim, nor does the Eucharist taste like flesh and blood. Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox, Lutherans, etc. will tell you this

To my logical mind, the Lutherans explain this mystery the best. They say it's both at the same time. It's spiritual food. To me it's just a mystery that really has to be experienced, not just theorized. As the popular saying goes, it is what it is.

(BTW, I didn't read the OP. If someone sincere such as yourself, Jmdrake, had posted the above, I would have taken the time to read and respond. BUT when someone attacks SDAs with such little knowledge of them that he posts anti-Mormon material. Then he attacks Roman Catholics with SDA material (most of which he disagrees with if he took the time to read it and the rest of it is a distortion of what Catholics truly believe,) I can't take that person seriously. Because why should I read what he cuts and pastes when he obviously doesn't?)
 
There is truth to that. After receiving the Eucharist we don't have blood dripping down our faces like vampires, we aren't cannibals as the false accusations that go back to antiquity claim, nor does the Eucharist taste like flesh and blood. Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox, Lutherans, etc. will tell you this

To my logical mind, the Lutherans explain this mystery the best. They say it's both at the same time. It's spiritual food. To me it's just a mystery that really has to be experienced, not just theorized. As the popular saying goes, it is what it is.

Cool! If more people would take the "Well this interpretation is reasonable and I believe it" attitude there might be less arguing among Christians. It's like the infant baptism thing. Nothing at all wrong with people going either way on that.

(BTW, I didn't read the OP. If someone sincere such as yourself, Jmdrake, had posted the above, I would have taken the time to read and respond. BUT when someone attacks SDAs with such little knowledge of them that he posts anti-Mormon material. Then he attacks Roman Catholics with SDA material (most of which he disagrees with if he took the time to read it and the rest of it is a distortion of what Catholics truly believe,) I can't take that person seriously. Because why should I read what he cuts and pastes when he obviously doesn't?)

Yeah I understand. I don't bother paying too much attention to Kevin or SF's cut and pastes on SDA's as well. I've taken the time to debunk them in the past and they never even acknowledged that their material was wrong. Oh well.
 
There is truth to that. After receiving the Eucharist we don't have blood dripping down our faces like vampires, we aren't cannibals as the false accusations that go back to antiquity claim, nor does the Eucharist taste like flesh and blood. Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox, Lutherans, etc. will tell you this

To my logical mind, the Lutherans explain this mystery the best. They say it's both at the same time. It's spiritual food. To me it's just a mystery that really has to be experienced, not just theorized. As the popular saying goes, it is what it is.

(BTW, I didn't read the OP. If someone sincere such as yourself, Jmdrake, had posted the above, I would have taken the time to read and respond. BUT when someone attacks SDAs with such little knowledge of them that he posts anti-Mormon material. Then he attacks Roman Catholics with SDA material (most of which he disagrees with if he took the time to read it and the rest of it is a distortion of what Catholics truly believe,) I can't take that person seriously. Because why should I read what he cuts and pastes when he obviously doesn't?)
We are visiting Missouri Synod Lutheran church and they treat Communion similarly to Catholics. They kneel at kneelers, take from the cup, host by mouth, and after Communion, the Pastor consumes remaining elements. As a former RC, I had no idea what Lutherans believe.

While we do not plan on joining the LCMS, it is historic, liturgical worship with music that honors God.
 
We are visiting Missouri Synod Lutheran church and they treat Communion similarly to Catholics. They kneel at kneelers, take from the cup, host by mouth, and after Communion, the Pastor consumes remaining elements. As a former RC, I had no idea what Lutherans believe.

While we do not plan on joining the LCMS, it is historic, liturgical worship with music that honors God.
One of my best friends before I moved is a Missouri Synod Pastor. There were certain ways a small town pastor and a small town physician were to behave. Although we didn't do anything to crazy, our families did regularly share a few drinks and laughs and some intense discussion when he broke out a bottle of whiskey LOL.

I developed respect for the LCMS as well.
 
There is truth to that. After receiving the Eucharist we don't have blood dripping down our faces like vampires, we aren't cannibals as the false accusations that go back to antiquity claim, nor does the Eucharist taste like flesh and blood. Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox, Lutherans, etc. will tell you this

To my logical mind, the Lutherans explain this mystery the best. They say it's both at the same time. It's spiritual food. To me it's just a mystery that really has to be experienced, not just theorized. As the popular saying goes, it is what it is.

(BTW, I didn't read the OP. If someone sincere such as yourself, Jmdrake, had posted the above, I would have taken the time to read and respond. BUT when someone attacks SDAs with such little knowledge of them that he posts anti-Mormon material. Then he attacks Roman Catholics with SDA material (most of which he disagrees with if he took the time to read it and the rest of it is a distortion of what Catholics truly believe,) I can't take that person seriously. Because why should I read what he cuts and pastes when he obviously doesn't?)

It is amusing though--it's almost like art work the way he tries to use one denominational belief to condemn another with. It's kind of like abstract criticism, you kind of stare it for a while until you think you see something--anything that might makes sense.
 
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Ratzinger was the Prefect, for the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, under John Paul II and perhaps one other pope. He is a scholar and must be read with care. He would never teach against the Magesterium.

Also, what is the context of this short piece. Perhaps he is trying to teach about the ubiquity of Christ. His resurrected body and blood, soul and divinity, seated at the right hand of God, the Father.

Perhaps this is where one starts when deciding what to believe about the sacrament of Communion.
 
One of my best friends before I moved is a Missouri Synod Pastor. There were certain ways a small town pastor and a small town physician were to behave. Although we didn't do anything to crazy, our families did regularly share a few drinks and laughs and some intense discussion when he broke out a bottle of whiskey LOL.

I developed respect for the LCMS as well.
I'm a tea-totaler for several reasons and dislike drinking in general. Sounds like you had a good friend though and sharing one's love for God, despite theological differences is good. What I'm finding is that sometimes we click with certain people of faith and those are the times of great fellowship.
 
I'm a tea-totaler for several reasons and dislike drinking in general.

I hear you. I was a bit younger then. The older I get the more I stay away from drinking as well for a number of reason.
 
Pope Benedict's assertions in the piece above is consistent with Patristic theology. The resurrected flesh we will have will be of a new, different, more spiritual nature than the corruptible flesh we have now. It will have substance, but will be in a deified form (or, in other words, a glorified form), united with the divine nature, in the image of the risen Christ Who is the Firstfruits of the new creation.

In his resurrection Jesus is in a new and glorious form. He appears in different places immediately. He is difficult to recognize (Lk 24:16; Jn 20:14). He eats and drinks to show that he is not a ghost (Lk 24:30, 39). He allows himself to be touched (Jn 20: 27, 21:9). And yet he appears in the midst of disciples, “the doors being shut” (Jn 20:19, 26). And he “vanishes out of their sight” (Lk 24:31). Christ indeed is risen, but his resurrected humanity is full of life and divinity. It is humanity in the new form of the eternal life of the Kingdom of God.

So it is with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor, it is raked in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Thus, it is written, the first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam [i.e. Christ] became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, then the spiritual.

The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man from heaven, so are those who are of heaven. Just as we have home the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven (1 Cor 15:42-50).

The resurrection of Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection of all humanity. It is the fulfillment of the Old Testament, “according to the Scriptures” where it is written, “For Thou doest not give me up unto Sheol [that is, the realm of death], or let Thy Godly one see corruption” (Ps 16:10; Acts 2:25-36). In Christ all expectations and hopes are filled: O Death, where is your sting? O Sheol, where is your victory? (Hos 13:14).

He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces… It will be said on that day, “Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him; let us be glad and rejoice in His salvation” (Isa 25:8-9).

Come, let us return to the Lord: For He has torn, that He may heal us; He has stricken, and He will bind us up. After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live before Him (Hos 6:1-2).

Thus says the Lord God: Behold I will open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people… And you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live… (Ez 37:12-14).

On Death and Resurrection in Christ

Yesterday I was crucified with Him; today I am glorified with Him. Yesterday I died with Him; today I am made alive with Him. Yesterday I was buried with Him; today I am raised up with Him. Let us offer to Him Who suffered and rose again for us… ourselves, the possession most precious to God and most proper. Let us become like Christ, since Christ became like us. Let us become Divine for His sake, since for us He became Man. He assumed the worse that He might give us the better. He became poor that by His poverty we might become rich. He accepted the form of a servant that we might win back our freedom. He came down that we might be lifted up. He was tempted that through Him we might conquer. He was dishonored that He might glorify us. He died that He might save us. He ascended that He might draw to Himself us, who were thrown down through the fall of sin. Let us give all, offer all, to Him who gave Himself a Ransom and Reconciliation for us. We needed an incarnate God, a God put to death, that we might live. We were put to death together with Him that we might be cleansed. We rose again with Him because we were put to death with Him. We were glorified with Him because we rose again with Him. A few drops of Blood recreate the whole of creation!

- St. Gregory the Theologian, Easter Orations
 
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Did we just have a thread about the Eucharist where everybody ended up respecting each other's opinions?
 
I was A RC for almost 30 years. I know what they believe. I have a RCC Catechism on my desk.

Isn't that the one you told us you just bought so you could dispute EOC doctrine? Ahh--something's fishy here Kevin.
 
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