Pentagon admits no proof of death of Osama Bin Laden

[jmdrake]

I know this is old news to some and no surprise to many. But some still seek to hold desparately to the myth that the government has at least partly told us the truth with regards to the GWOT. We were initially told there was video and photos of the raid that supposedly killed Osama Bin Laden. We were then told that all the helmet cams of all the Navy SEALS involved malfunctioned and that the pictures couldn't be released because it would inflame the Muslim world. We were told OBL was buried at sea because that was the Muslim custom under the circumstances...even though it turns out that the burial at sea actually violated Muslim law under the circumstances. (If it is possible to get a body back to land, it's supposed to be buried on land.) Lastly, we were told that a "DNA match" had been done between Osama Bin Laden and members of his family.

Well....it turns out there is proof of none of this. In response to an FOIA request, the Pentagon says it doesn't have any DNA, photographs or video. Oh, and no sailors aboard the aircraft carrier Osama Bin Laden was supposedly dumped off of witnessed the burial at sea. Oh, but you say books have been written by SEALS involved and they made a movie and these SEALS were involved etc? So the same Navy SEALS who's very existence was once hidden now have permission to write books about actual recent operations against an ongoing threat? So all of a sudden the Pentagon no longer cares about exposing sources and methods? And what about the SEALS that were blown up in the helicopter in Afghanistan a few months later? Scare information about them (except they were from team 6, the same team that took out OBL), but supposedly we've got others writing books and consulting on movies. Speaking of movies, remember Saving Private Jessica Lynch? If the Pentagon will stage a fake rescue for propaganda purposes, why would they not stage a fake assassination?

And why am I posting this? Because I am sick and tired of people who should know better castigating those of us who dare to speak the truth as "crazy". No. We are not crazy. Crazy is continuing to make excuse after excuse for the lies of a government that patholigically lies to you because the truth is too scary for you to accept. And the truth is that telling the truth doesn't hurt the movement. What hurts the movement is the myth that we can continue indefinitely playing the game "their way" and expect people to just buy into the idea that if America quits throwing rocks at the made up bogeyman, the made up bogeyman will leave us alone. No he won't. The powers that be get too much mileage out of the made up boogeyman. It's just like slasher movies like Friday the 13th. They released Friday the 13th the Final Chapter where Jason was "killed off". Oh...but they were making too much money off Jason so they had to bring him back somehow. The Al Qaeda bogeyman will continue haunting the dreams of the gullible American public until it is exposed as the fraud that it is. The CIA was in charge of the Jedda Saudi Arabia visa desk where 15 of the 19 hijackers went through! And they had routinely let known terrorists through! The FBI had a mole inside the 1993 WTC plot who made the freaking bomb! According to former terror czar Richard Clarke, the CIA knew the hijackers were in America prior to 9/11 and withheld that information from other agencies. He speculates the CIA was trying to recruit them. Considering the CIA let 15 of them in the country, maybe they were already recruited? How long are we going to continue to excuse such obvious treason as "incompetence"?

/rant

 

[asurfaholic]

Love this style of writing. It is convincing..

Could be very useful to present to a person who holds the belief "amerika fuk yea"can do no wrong.

 

[ghengis86]

Bump...great post!

 

[abacabb]

I know this is old news to some and no surprise to many. But some still seek to hold desparately to the myth that the government has at least partly told us the truth with regards to the GWOT. We were initially told there was video and photos of the raid that supposedly killed Osama Bin Laden. We were then told that all the helmet cams of all the Navy SEALS involved malfunctioned and that the pictures couldn't be released because it would inflame the Muslim world. We were told OBL was buried at sea because that was the Muslim custom under the circumstances...even though it turns out that the burial at sea actually violated Muslim law under the circumstances. (If it is possible to get a body back to land, it's supposed to be buried on land.) Lastly, we were told that a "DNA match" had been done between Osama Bin Laden and members of his family.

Well....it turns out there is proof of none of this. In response to an FOIA request, the Pentagon says it doesn't have any DNA, photographs or video. Oh, and no sailors aboard the aircraft carrier Osama Bin Laden was supposedly dumped off of witnessed the burial at sea. Oh, but you say books have been written by SEALS involved and they made a movie and these SEALS were involved etc? So the same Navy SEALS who's very existence was once hidden now have permission to write books about actual recent operations against an ongoing threat? So all of a sudden the Pentagon no longer cares about exposing sources and methods? And what about the SEALS that were blown up in the helicopter in Afghanistan a few months later? Scare information about them (except they were from team 6, the same team that took out OBL), but supposedly we've got others writing books and consulting on movies. Speaking of movies, remember Saving Private Jessica Lynch? If the Pentagon will stage a fake rescue for propaganda purposes, why would they not stage a fake assassination?

And why am I posting this? Because I am sick and tired of people who should know better castigating those of us who dare to speak the truth as "crazy". No. We are not crazy. Crazy is continuing to make excuse after excuse for the lies of a government that patholigically lies to you because the truth is too scary for you to accept. And the truth is that telling the truth doesn't hurt the movement. What hurts the movement is the myth that we can continue indefinitely playing the game "their way" and expect people to just buy into the idea that if America quits throwing rocks at the made up bogeyman, the made up bogeyman will leave us alone. No he won't. The powers that be get too much mileage out of the made up boogeyman. It's just like slasher movies like Friday the 13th. They released Friday the 13th the Final Chapter where Jason was "killed off". Oh...but they were making too much money off Jason so they had to bring him back somehow. The Al Qaeda bogeyman will continue haunting the dreams of the gullible American public until it is exposed as the fraud that it is. The CIA was in charge of the Jedda Saudi Arabia visa desk where 15 of the 19 hijackers went through! And they had routinely let known terrorists through! The FBI had a mole inside the 1993 WTC plot who made the freaking bomb! According to former terror czar Richard Clarke, the CIA knew the hijackers were in America prior to 9/11 and withheld that information from other agencies. He speculates the CIA was trying to recruit them. Considering the CIA let 15 of them in the country, maybe they were already recruited? How long are we going to continue to excuse such obvious treason as "incompetence"?

/rant

1993 might have been criminal negligence
2001 might have been criminal negligence to possible limited criminal assistance
2011 Is simply criminal

In my opinion, the conspiracy theory is that the Bin Laden assassination even occurred. There is zero proof.

 

[jbauer]

It is my opinion that Osama was dead and had been dead since the war in Afganistan. I highly doubt that he made it all the way to 2008. For crying out loud remember the Obama picture with everyone looking on. They were able to watch the raid live in HD 1/2 a world away. They had better coverage then I get for football games. Now you're telling me that none of that showed any proof of what happened and we're to beleive it?

Hell the powers that be can track anyone they want with all the cameras they have everywhere. The Osama thing was nothing but a go team USA plea to keep us in the war in Afganistan and gave us the green light to stay there possibly go into Pakistan certainly go into Iran.

 

[phill4paul]

You might be interested in this jmdrake. It didn't get much viewership here but I find it quite interesting...

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?408864-On-al-Queda-the-Mob-and-the-Oklahoma-city-bombing

 

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

I know this is old news to some and no surprise to many. But some still seek to hold desparately to the myth that the government has at least partly told us the truth with regards to the GWOT.

....

And why am I posting this? Because I am sick and tired of people who should know better castigating those of us who dare to speak the truth as "crazy". No. We are not crazy. Crazy is continuing to make excuse after excuse for the lies of a government that patholigically lies to you because the truth is too scary for you to accept. ....

/rant

+rep for your entire rant, but I don't believe that's why they lie. In fact, that is a lie they tell regarding why they lie.

 

[jmdrake]

+rep for your entire rant, but I don't believe that's why they lie. In fact, that is a lie they tell regarding why they lie.

Thank you. But let me clarify. I don't think the government lies because the truth is too scary. I think people accept the government lies because the truth is too scary.

 

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Thank you. But let me clarify. I don't think the government lies because the truth is too scary. I think people accept the government lies because the truth is too scary.

Yes... Because the government has told them the truth would cause widespread panic or other problems. (another government lie)

 

[abacabb]

Thank you. But let me clarify. I don't think the government lies because the truth is too scary. I think people accept the government lies because the truth is too scary.

To be honest, I almost don't want to find out the government was complicit with 911. If elements of the government purposely let these guys in to knowingly train them to fly planes (as opposed to simply letting them in because they were moron) people should be executed for treason or ideally the government overthrown.
As one can read in the Romans 13 thread, this is something that I am very conflicted about personally.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

In September 1996, under continual insistence from religious and grassroots groups, the Pentagon released seven Spanish-language training manuals used at the SOA until 1991. A New York Times editorial declared: Americans can now read for themselves some of the noxious lessons the United States Army taught to thousands of Latin American military and police officers at the School of the Americas during the 1980s. A training manual recently released by the Pentagon recommended interrogation techniques like torture, execution, blackmail and arresting the relatives of those being questioned.3 SOA graduates have led a number of military coups—so many that the Washington Post reported in 1968 that the school was "known throughout Latin America as the 'escuela de golpes' or coup school"4—and are responsible for the murders of thousands of people, particularly in the 1980s, such as the Uraba massacre in Colombia; the El Mozote massacre, the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero, the rape and murder of four US churchwomen and the Jesuit massacre in El Salvador; the La Cantuta massacre in Peru; the torture and murder of a UN worker in Chile; and hundreds of other human-rights abuses.

In the village of El Mozote, El Salvador, in December 1981, from 700 to 1,000 persons were reported killed, mostly the elderly, women and children, in extremely cruel and gruesome ways.5 Ten of the twelve soldiers cited for the massacre were SOA graduates. In the slaying of six Jesuit priests and two others in November 1989, the UN Truth Commission revealed that 19 of the 26 Salvadoran officers involved had been trained at the SOA.6The full scope of atrocities committed by SOA graduates will likely never be known because members of Latin American militaries are generally above the law. It has been rare that crimes by members of these militaries have been investigated, and rarer still that the names of those suspected have been released.

The SOA has always claimed that it doesn't teach its students how to torture or how to commit other human-rights abuses. When the truth was revealed by the release of the training manuals, the SOA claimed that it had changed. But only one of 42 courses in the 1996 course catalogue—"Democratic Sustainment"—centers on issues of democracy and human rights. In 1997, only 13 students took this course, compared with 118 who took "Military Intelligence". The "mandatory human-rights component" of other courses comprises only a very small portion of the total course hours. Former SOA human-rights instructor Charles Call has reported that human-rights training is not taken seriously.

............

From the early 1960s until the mid 1970s, the US Office of Public Safety (part of AID), operated The International Police Academy, at first in Panama, then in Washington. It did for foreign police officers what the SOA did for the military. OPS provided training abroad for more than a million policemen in the Third World, ten thousand of whom were selected to come to Washington for advanced training. There may well have been more serious human-rights abusers amongst the OPS police students than amongst the SOA military graduates because of the former's closer and more frequent contact with the populace. Moreover, most of the classes were held abroad, where the instructors could feel less constrained than in Washington or Georgia about lecturing in a very militant manner on "the communist menace" and the use of any means necessary to combat it. Amongst the means sometimes taught was torture. (See "Torture" chapter.)

OPS provided the police with weapons, ammunition, radios, patrol cars, tear gas, gas masks, batons and other crowd control devices; a class on Assassination Weapons—"A discussion of various weapons which may be used by the assassin" is how OPS put it; and instruction on the design, manufacture and employment of bombs and incendiary devices, taught at the "bomb school" in Los Fresnos, Texas. The official OPS explanation for the bomb courses was that policemen needed such training in order to deal with bombs placed by terrorists. There was, however, no instruction in destroying bombs, only in making them.11

When Congress abolished the Public Safety Program in 1975 in response to rising criticism of this dark side of American foreign policy, the Drug Enforcement Administration, with help from the FBI and the Defense Department, quietly stepped in and continued the program.12 In various reincarnations, the program continues, just as the School of the Americas made it to the 21st century.13

Respectfully excerpted from the book Rogue Stae, by William Blum. All rights and respect go towards the author. I'd recommend picking it up if you have not read the book yet.

 

[jclay2]

To be honest, I almost don't want to find out the government was complicit with 911. If elements of the government purposely let these guys in to knowingly train them to fly planes (as opposed to simply letting them in because they were moron) people should be executed for treason or ideally the government overthrown.
As one can read in the Romans 13 thread, this is something that I am very conflicted about personally.

I am sure you are aware of it, but go look at operation northwoods proposed by the cia during the coldwar. If a government agency is capable of officially proposing to launch phony terrorist attacks on its own citizens in order to stir up the populace, they are capable of anything.

oh and + rep to the op. Great write up.

 

[Anti Federalist]

+rep

Should be a sticky

I know this is old news to some and no surprise to many. But some still seek to hold desparately to the myth that the government has at least partly told us the truth with regards to the GWOT. We were initially told there was video and photos of the raid that supposedly killed Osama Bin Laden. We were then told that all the helmet cams of all the Navy SEALS involved malfunctioned and that the pictures couldn't be released because it would inflame the Muslim world. We were told OBL was buried at sea because that was the Muslim custom under the circumstances...even though it turns out that the burial at sea actually violated Muslim law under the circumstances. (If it is possible to get a body back to land, it's supposed to be buried on land.) Lastly, we were told that a "DNA match" had been done between Osama Bin Laden and members of his family.

Well....it turns out there is proof of none of this. In response to an FOIA request, the Pentagon says it doesn't have any DNA, photographs or video. Oh, and no sailors aboard the aircraft carrier Osama Bin Laden was supposedly dumped off of witnessed the burial at sea. Oh, but you say books have been written by SEALS involved and they made a movie and these SEALS were involved etc? So the same Navy SEALS who's very existence was once hidden now have permission to write books about actual recent operations against an ongoing threat? So all of a sudden the Pentagon no longer cares about exposing sources and methods? And what about the SEALS that were blown up in the helicopter in Afghanistan a few months later? Scare information about them (except they were from team 6, the same team that took out OBL), but supposedly we've got others writing books and consulting on movies. Speaking of movies, remember Saving Private Jessica Lynch? If the Pentagon will stage a fake rescue for propaganda purposes, why would they not stage a fake assassination?

And why am I posting this? Because I am sick and tired of people who should know better castigating those of us who dare to speak the truth as "crazy". No. We are not crazy. Crazy is continuing to make excuse after excuse for the lies of a government that patholigically lies to you because the truth is too scary for you to accept. And the truth is that telling the truth doesn't hurt the movement. What hurts the movement is the myth that we can continue indefinitely playing the game "their way" and expect people to just buy into the idea that if America quits throwing rocks at the made up bogeyman, the made up bogeyman will leave us alone. No he won't. The powers that be get too much mileage out of the made up boogeyman. It's just like slasher movies like Friday the 13th. They released Friday the 13th the Final Chapter where Jason was "killed off". Oh...but they were making too much money off Jason so they had to bring him back somehow. The Al Qaeda bogeyman will continue haunting the dreams of the gullible American public until it is exposed as the fraud that it is. The CIA was in charge of the Jedda Saudi Arabia visa desk where 15 of the 19 hijackers went through! And they had routinely let known terrorists through! The FBI had a mole inside the 1993 WTC plot who made the freaking bomb! According to former terror czar Richard Clarke, the CIA knew the hijackers were in America prior to 9/11 and withheld that information from other agencies. He speculates the CIA was trying to recruit them. Considering the CIA let 15 of them in the country, maybe they were already recruited? How long are we going to continue to excuse such obvious treason as "incompetence"?

/rant

 

[heavenlyboy34]

+rep for the OP. Ignore the nay-sayers and various other nogoodniks here.

 

[jllundqu]

lol...nogoodnik

 

[jmdrake]

Respectfully excerpted from the book Rogue Stae, by William Blum. All rights and respect go towards the author. I'd recommend picking it up if you have not read the book yet.

Wow! Good read. I'll add that to my summer reading list. I was aware of the SOA, but I didn't know about the release of the training manual. It's a shame that something can be out in the open and still ignored by the MSM.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

Wow! Good read. I'll add that to my summer reading list. I was aware of the SOA, but I didn't know about the release of the training manual. It's a shame that something can be out in the open and still ignored by the MSM.

His section on torture and assassination manuals was eye-opening to say the least. Along with the documentation of us supplying terrorists with torture devices and training. I was unaware of the SAVAK (Iranian intelligence arm) and the atrocities we aided there. (back when the Shah was in power) I have a thread about it somewhere and I'll try to find to link.

CIA Manuals

 

[kcchiefs6465]

The people themselves are very well educated and pro-western- nowhere near the anti-Americanism seen in 1979 during the Revolution and hostage crisis.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will lose his job following elections in June of this year (he is not elgible to run) so they will definately have a new President. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_presidential_election,_2013

Well many of the people who were oppressed and tortured under the Shah are no longer around. Many of the people who remembered the United States assisting the SAVAK with 'useful' torture instructionals have forgotten as well. I am sure there is still some resentment over there. I'd be pretty pissed off as well if I were in their shoes.

The younger generation just wants freedom. It's a shame a lot of our policies have hindered their efforts.

With regards to the SAVAK-

Brute force was supplemented with the bastinado; sleep deprivation; extensive solitary confinement; glaring searchlights; standing in one place for hours on end; nail extractions; snakes (favored for use with women); electrical shocks with cattle prods, often into the rectum; cigarette burns; sitting on hot grills; acid dripped into nostrils; near-drownings; mock executions; and an electric chair with a large metal mask to muffle screams while amplifying them for the victim. This latter contraption was dubbed the Apollo—an allusion to the American space capsules. Prisoners were also humiliated by being raped, urinated on, and forced to stand naked.[15] Despite the new 'scientific' methods, the torture of choice remained the traditional bastinado used to beat soles of the feet.

During the height of its power, SAVAK had virtually unlimited powers. It operated its own detention centers, like Evin Prison. In addition to domestic security the service's tasks extended to the surveillance of Iranians abroad, notably in the United States, France, and the United Kingdom, and especially students on government stipends. The agency also closely collaborated with the American CIA by sending their agents to an air force base in New York to share and discuss interrogation tactics.[20]

The Federation of American Scientists also found it guilty of "the torture and execution of thousands of political prisoners" and symbolizing "the Shah's rule from 1963-79." The FAS list of SAVAK torture methods included "electric shock, whipping, beating, inserting broken glass and pouring boiling water into the rectum, tying weights to the testicles, and the extraction of teeth and nails."

Correct me if I am wrong but was there not a video demonstrating various torture methods made by the CIA that was found in Iran? This was a little before the taking of the hostages, IIRC.

The notorious Iranian security service, SAVAK, which employed torture routinely, was created under the guidance of the CIA and Israel in the 1950s.9 According to a former CIA analyst on Iran, Jesse J. Leaf, SAVAK was instructed in torture techniques by the Agency.10 After the 1979 revolution, the Iranians found CIA film made for SAVAK on how to torture women.11

Here's the sources

9 Kermit Roosevelt, Countercoup: The Struggle for the Control of Iran (McGraw-Hill paperback, 1981), p.9. Roosevelt was a CIA officer operating in Iran in the 1950s.

10 Leaf was chief CIA analyst on Iran for five years before resigning in 1973, interviewed by Seymour Hersh in the New York Times, January 7,1979.

11 Robert Fisk, article in The Independent (London), August 9,1998, p. 19

Excerpted from Rogue State, by William Blum

 

[KrokHead]

I thought this was the proof???

 

[osan]

Well done. OK, you got it off your chest. I've done the same, as have many others here. What we really have not done, however, is come up with plans of action that will actually accomplish something. The best I have been able to come up with has been to advocate defiance in all things large and small as one is able and willing. I do it all the time, but it is nothing much of which to speak. Is that the best there is? Are we really going to have to wait until open warfare erupts... that, or simply lay down default-style? With growing frequency and duration it seems to be the case in my mind - that all we can do is wait until They make a move so unequivocally provocative that even the candy-ass ultra-fag useful-idiot progressive liberals will not be able to stand it. The downside to that idea is that by the time that happens chances are our goose will be cooked.

I truly am glad that I am getting old. I doubt I could take another 20 years of this idiocy.