Civil Liberties: On Mandated Transvaginal Ultrasound?

Wags

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Source from washingtonpost (I can't post links yet apparently as I'm new here) said this: "Ron Paul likes limited government interference yet supports state-mandated sonograms"

I'm hoping someone can help me to understand this better as there's only one main source (above) I've encountered that talks about Ron's stance on this subject. Recently Virginia signed into law to have the transvaginal probe as a requirement for women seeking an abortion. Previously these were used to check up on possible irregularities of the reproductive system, sometimes for pregnant women wanting to make sure everything's alright.

Now, if I understand correctly, there was already a mandate in most states to use at least some kind of ultrasound before performing that kind of medical procedure, so that it can be performed as safely as possible. Am I correct? Just that until recently, most abortion clinics would not show images of the ultrasound to the patients, for whatever reasons.

The reasons that have been brought up to require the use this transvaginal ultrasound before an abortion are to due allowing for more safety and due to informed consent. The woman should have a clear idea of the procedure being performed on her, and on the fetus. Though Texas has taken it further and wants to require doctors to show the images of the ultrasound and describe the features of the fetus to the patient. I'm not so sure about that, mainly because it seems reasonable (even though I don't consider abortions to be reasonable) to allow the woman to opt out as opposed to forcing her to look at images and forcing doctors to speak about something that they may not wish to discuss. Plus, again, this ultrasound IS invasive.

But the source claiming that "Ron Paul likes limited government interference yet wants states to mandate a sonogram"only uses the word "sonogram" ... I assume they refer to the transvaginal ultrasound, but that's not entirely clear to me. It seems possible that he's only referring to a regular ultrasound. I have a hard time imagining him supporting something so literally forceful and invasive... as bad as abortion may be. This would only pile one crime on another.

If Ron Paul does support this, what do you make of it? It doesn't seem hypocritical of him in the sense that he still wants to leave these issues to the states. But there's the lingering notion in my head that he would sign to pass the invasive sonogram in his own state (which isn't immediately troubling to me as I live in Florida) and that sort of lessens my view of him. I still believe overwhelmingly that this country needs Ron Paul and needs to hear the ideals he voices, which reflect not only consistency but a strong moral compass. What are your thoughts about his stance on the issue?
 
If he supports mandated transvaginal ultrasounds, it is a massive contradiction in his philosophy. There is no way to dress it up and make it look nicer.
 
It is an abdominal ultrasound.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-03-07/virginia-abortion-ultrasound-bill/53401720/1

The ultrasound bill initially called for a vaginally invasive form of the examination. After Capitol Square protests, Democratic legislators accusing the bill's GOP backers of sanctioning "state-mandated rape" and being lampooned by Saturday Night Live and The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, McDonnell had his party remove the "transvaginal ultrasound" requirement.
 
If he supports mandated transvaginal ultrasounds, it is a massive contradiction in his philosophy. There is no way to dress it up and make it look nicer.

Dr. Paul has tried again and again to differentiate between his personal beliefs and his duties as an elected official.

Somehow I can't see him signing legislation that would add more federal government no matter his personal beliefs.
 
If he supports mandated transvaginal ultrasounds, it is a massive contradiction in his philosophy. There is no way to dress it up and make it look nicer.

Not really. It is only "mandated" if you want to kill a baby in that state. If you want don't want to kill a baby in that state none is required.
 
For what I can remember;

As a doctor he advises women that want to get an abortion to get counceling and an ultrasound. And he does not perform abortions himself or assist in, just counseling into changing opinion I believe.
He thinks abortion is a violent crime, violent crimes are dealt with by the states individually, like murder, rape etc.
Ron Paul isn't for federal mandates, so I don't think he would support this. (states issue)
 
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I hate to be so graphic, but how is this:

You will lie down on a table with your knees bent and feet in holders called stirrups. The health care provider will place a probe, called a transducer, into the vagina. The probe is covered with a condom and a gel. The probe sends out sound waves, which reflect off body structures. A computer receives these waves and uses them to create a picture. The doctor can immediately see the picture on a nearby TV monitor.

not a violation of your rights? I thought shoving something inside of a vagina that was not consented to was rape?

And mandating it? How can you pick and choose what is allowed to be mandated and what is not?

Like most other mandates, this mandate arguably had good intentions, but nowhere in the constitution does it say anybody can mandate anybody to have a stick shoved up their vagina.
 
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I hate to be so graphic, but how is this:
not a violation of your rights? I thought shoving something inside of a vagina that was not consented to was rape?
And mandating it? How can you pick and choose what is allowed to be mandated and what is not
Like most other mandates, this mandate arguably had good intentions, but nowhere in the constitution does it say anybody can mandate anybody to have a stick shoved up their vagina.

It isn't a mandate, it is a requirement in order to kill a baby. do you want the pro-life people to be graphic as well? I'd bet they can be more graphic about the abortion process than your description of the sonogram.
 
I'm dead set against legislation period.

However I find it ironic that a "person" who is asking a physician to dilate one of their orifices and scrape and suck out a fetus could complain about the physician exploring the same orifice pre-op.
 
I'm dead set against legislation period.

However I find it ironic that a "person" who is asking a physician to dilate one of their orifices and scrape and suck out a fetus could complain about the physician exploring the same orifice pre-op.

Because one is voluntary and the other is forced by the government, perhaps?
 
Why are people still going on about this in this manner?

1. It is a State issue, not a federal one.
2. The transvaginal ultrasound is NOT being required.
3. Ron Paul has nothing to do with this.

And now the next three posts will go on about it being mandated that women are going to have something shoved up their vaginas.
 
It isn't a mandate, it is a requirement in order to kill a baby. do you want the pro-life people to be graphic as well? I'd bet they can be more graphic about the abortion process than your description of the sonogram.

If you want to be graphic with me, feel free. I'm well aware of how an abortion works. My stance on this Transvaginal ultrasound doesn't illustrate my stance on abortion. It doesn't make me pro-abortion. In a perfect world, nobody would ever decide to have an abortion. Unfortunately they do.

I would say that a bigger issue that we need to take proactive steps towards slowing down is the increase in teen pregnancies. I don't have stats to back this up, but I would guess that the majority of abortions happen with the 21 and under crowd. What can we do to slow down teenage pregancies?

If you want my all out stance on abortion, then here it is:

As a male outsider who will never be faced with such a decision and will never be pregnant, I think abortion is wrong. I don't know enough of the facts about when a fetus becomes a living breathing being. I'm not a doctor. It is a very subjective argument that has a variety of opinions: does life begin as a sperm? the formation of the zygote? when the heartbeat starts? What constitutes it as a living being?
 
Incorrect. It is still voluntary. Nobody is forced by govt to get an abortion. No voluntary abortion, no ultrasound.

Ok, point taken. However, if abortion is legal, why is it ok for government to step in and force a doctor to perform a procedure on a woman that the woman does not want? If something is legal, it's legal. If people want to work to change the laws about the legality of something, fine. But coming up with mandates and more mandates is not the answer.
 
Ok, point taken. However, if abortion is legal, why is it ok for government to step in and force a doctor to perform a procedure on a woman that the woman does not want? If something is legal, it's legal. If people want to work to change the laws about the legality of something, fine. But coming up with mandates and more mandates is not the answer.

I think they are working to change the laws. in this example they are working to change the law to make it only legal if an ultrasound is performed first. So it sounds like they are doing just as you suggest.
 
I think they are working to change the laws. in this example they are working to change the law to make it only legal if an ultrasound is performed first. So it sounds like they are doing just as you suggest.

No, I'm talking about work to change the legality of abortion period.
Not piling on a bunch of laws to try to get someone to decide not to have one. I don't feel that is government's role.


edited to add: Well, let me ask this, what other instances are there of people being forced by the government to undergo one procedure in order to have another procedure? I'm asking this not snarkily, but honestly, because I really don't know. What can this be compared to? Are there other instances where a procedure is forced on a person, before another procedure is to be performed, for the sole purpose of making that person more informed about the medical choice they're about to make? Does anyone know?
 
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