Jesus vs. the Christians

Ronin Truth

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Mike Lux - Co-Founder, Democracy Partners

Jesus vs. the Christians

Posted: 03/13/2012 4:58 pm EDT Updated: 05/13/2012 5:12 am EDT

A lot of people have asked me how it is that so many Republicans claim to follow Jesus in spite of apparently not following his actual teachings at all. How is it that they say they are Christians yet seem to believe the exact opposite of what he taught? How can you square the fact that -- while the Jesus of the New Testament preached kindness, generosity, mercy, not judging others, welcoming the stranger and helping the poor -- people who claim they follow him seem to disdain the poor, vigorously judge everyone who doesn't agree with them, show no mercy and seem to have a serious mean streak? Excellent questions, which you have to go back to the very beginnings of the Christian religion to answer.

To understand how this is possible, you have to understand that the religion of Christianity and the core doctrines in its theology were founded not by Jesus himself but by the apostle Paul. The movement Jesus started was firmly based in Judaism, and was led (according to Paul's own letters and backed up by other historical documents from that period) in the years after Jesus died by his brother James; who, like his brother, was killed by the Romans and/or Jewish leaders affiliated with them about 30 years after Jesus' death, in 62 A.D. Paul, who as far as we know had never known Jesus personally or heard him preach, rejected the ideas of James and created his own doctrine of faith in Jesus leading to personal salvation. But as much as Paul passionately believed in Jesus as his savior, and the savior of all those who profess faith in Jesus as the messiah, Paul didn't write about, or really seem to know much at all about, what Jesus had actually taught while he was alive. In fact, we have no reason to believe that Paul ever met Jesus or heard him preach. The gospels -- Matthew, Mark, Luke and John -- we rely on today to tell us what Jesus actually might have preached were written in the decades after Paul wrote his letters that became the founding theology of Christianity, and Paul's letters did not discuss what Jesus had said, only what Paul believed Jesus had meant to the world.

Paul was obsessed with the path to individual salvation after death, and for him that meant accepting Jesus, who God had sent to sacrifice himself for us, as your personal savior. Salvation didn't come by "works," meaning what good things you did in your life or the way you treated others, but by faith. The fact that Paul didn't seem to know, and certainly didn't write about, what Jesus had actually taught in terms of personal ethics or social reform, was irrelevant to Paul's view of theology.

It is this theology that allows modern day conservatives to strip the teachings of Jesus from their version of Christianity. I know it seems like an odd notion, but my theory is that they have come to believe that if they accept the idea that Jesus is their spiritual savior, they don't have to worry so much about how he said we should live our lives every day.

Of course, the conservative Christians I speak of would vehemently deny that this is how they felt. What they say about what Jesus actually taught is that a) Jesus' preaching was focused on purely spiritual things and personal salvation, not on how society was organized and b) that when Jesus talked about helping the poor, showing mercy and all those lefty sounding things, he was talking only about private charity and not government. This is where conservatives go from theology to rationalization. Let's just focus on what we know from the Bible about these two arguments.

The way the first argument goes is that when Jesus spoke of bringing good news to the poor or liberty to the oppressed, he was speaking solely of personal salvation. In other words, the good news was that those poor and oppressed folks were going to get to go to heaven if they believed the right things. This is what conservatives have argued for 2,000 years: "Hey, you slaves over there, Jesus only meant freedom in heaven, not here on earth." But this flies in the face of the entire Jewish prophetic tradition that Jesus was a part of, where the prophets were very clearly focused on speaking to the rulers of Israel and the wealthy establishment who offended God. In the words of Isaiah: "Woe to the legislators of infamous laws, to those who issue tyrannical decrees, who refuse justice to the unfortunate and cheat the poor of their rights, who make widows their prey and rob the orphan." In fact, it was that same Prophet Isaiah who Jesus quoted in his very first public sermon in Luke with which he opened his ministry, where he talked about bringing good news to the poor and liberty to the captives. In that same quote, he also said he had been sent "to proclaim the Lord's year of favor," which was a tradition in ancient Israel that forced the wealthy to forgive the debts of the poor. There was nothing spiritual about it: He was openly and unquestionably, like Isaiah before him, calling for a society-wide redistribution of wealth.

So let's just recount what the Christian New Testament says about Jesus as a social reformer. In his first sermon, he says he has come to bring good news to the poor and liberty to the captives, and calls for the rich to forgive the debts of the poor. He repeatedly spoke with disdain about the wealthy, almost as much as he talked about the importance of helping the poor. He challenged the authorities who were about to stone a woman to death. He drove the money changers from the Temple. He was crucified, a punishment Rome reserved solely for their most dangerous political opponents. His mother (according to the Gospel of Luke) and brother (according to the book of James, which was attributed to him, and which in any case historians believe represented his views accurately) spoke in passionately revolutionary political terms. He, his cousin and close ally John the Baptist, and his brother James, who was the leader of Jesus' movement after Jesus died, all were sentenced to death by the authorities. Does this description sound like someone who cared only about individual spiritual salvation and was not involved in broader societal reform? My view is that the conservatives who try to make the case that the Jesus described in the New Testament was only concerned with personal salvation and individual charity, that he was not interested in challenging the underlying structure of society on behalf of the poor and oppressed, are in the deepest denial.

Check out this Rick Santorum quote for a minute:

"But is there such thing as a sincere liberal Christian, which says that we basically take this document and re-write it ourselves? Is that really Christian? That's a bigger question for me. And the answer is, no, it's not. I don't think there is such a thing. To take what is plainly written and say that I don't agree with that, therefore, I don't have to pay attention to it, means you're not what you say you are. You're a liberal something, but you're not a Christian. That's sort of how I look at it.

"When you go so far afield of that and take what is a salvation story and turn it into a liberation theology story, which is done in the Catholic world as well as in the evangelical world, you have abandoned Christendom, in my opinion. And you don't have a right to claim it."


When you actually read about Jesus in the New Testament -- his mother Mary's declaration that his role would be to "pull the princes down from their thrones and raise high the lowly" and "fill the starving with good things and send the rich away empty"; Jesus' very first sermon where he quotes the social reformer prophet Isaiah calling for the wealthy to forgive the debts of the poor; the number of times he talked about helping the poor and dismissing the rich; the number of times he talked about mercy for the weak; the number of times he quoted the ancient Israeli prophets who had all focused their anger on the ruling class of Israel; the way his brother and heir as leader of the first Christian community had told the rich to "weep for the miseries that are coming to you" because of "the wages which you have kept back from the laborers mowing your fields" -- you really have to wonder about the bizarre back flips someone like Santorum has to make when saying something that goes that directly against what the Bible truly says.

Having read my Bible, I have to reverse Santorum's question: Is there such a thing as a sincere conservative Christian? "To take," as Santorum so wisely says, "what is plainly written and say that I don't agree with that, therefore I don't have to pay attention to it, means you're not what you say you are." Or to have Glenn Beck attack programs for the poor because, as he said with a laugh, "in nature the lions eat the weak": Could such a man be a Christian as he claims to be? What about the crowd, which one would have to assume would mostly call themselves Christian, at the conference he attended who laughed and cheered at the idea of those lions eating the weak, or the crowd at the Republican debate who cheered for the idea that someone without health insurance would die. One could certainly make the argument that Santorum made, that he and the others don't agree "with what is plainly written" in the Bible. But unlike Santorum, I don't want to question anyone's faith.

Perhaps we can say instead that they are Pauline in their Christianity, that they sincerely believe that God sent his only son down to earth to save the souls of believers in Jesus -- but that they don't feel much of a need to actually follow what Jesus taught about loving their neighbors.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-lux/jesus-vs-the-christians_b_1342613.html
 
Idiotic progressive claptrap from the Huffington Post by a guy who is involved in a group called "Democracy Partners" that admits in the 2nd paragraph that he's an unbeliever. Just for everybody's information, Paul's teachings on Christ being one's spiritual savior is echoed in the Gospel of John, most specifically in John 14:6. I wonder if this idiot ever read Matthew 20 (the parable of the workers in the vineyard), which basically kills any possibility of Jesus accepting his crypto-socialistic ideology. Furthermore, most of the early church outside of Israel was converted after Christ gave him charge to the apostles, which in no way invalidates the canon status of Luke's, Paul's or Jude's contributions to the New Testament.

Nothing to see here, please move along.
 
And especially absolutely NEVER, EVER read the actual words of Jesus or follow his commands. :rolleyes:
 
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Idiotic progressive claptrap from the Huffington Post by a guy who is involved in a group called "Democracy Partners" that admits in the 2nd paragraph that he's an unbeliever. Just for everybody's information, Paul's teachings on Christ being one's spiritual savior is echoed in the Gospel of John, most specifically in John 14:6. I wonder if this idiot ever read Matthew 20 (the parable of the workers in the vineyard), which basically kills any possibility of Jesus accepting his crypto-socialistic ideology. Furthermore, most of the early church outside of Israel was converted after Christ gave him charge to the apostles, which in no way invalidates the canon status of Luke's, Paul's or Jude's contributions to the New Testament.

Nothing to see here, please move along.

Whistling past the cemetery?
 
To understand how this is possible, you have to understand that the religion of Christianity and the core doctrines in its theology were founded not by Jesus himself but by the apostle Paul.

That is just completely ignorant and wrong, typical for an atheist writing about Christianity. Jesus and Paul and the rest of the apostles all taught the EXACT same religion: the Savior has come to save His people from the wrath of God against their sin.
 
To understand how this is possible, you have to understand that the religion of Christianity and the core doctrines in its theology were founded not by Jesus himself but by the apostle Paul.

That is just completely ignorant and wrong, typical for an atheist writing about Christianity. Jesus and Paul and the rest of the apostles all taught the EXACT same religion: the Savior has come to save His people from the wrath of God against their sin.
 
The Business of Religion vs. Jesus

Sorry, but you can't reconstruct a stripped down, organic, anti-corporate version of what you think Jesus should be.

Glenn T. Stanton/ January 20, 2012


A talented young believer posted a video of himself delivering a poem last week about what's wrong the Church today and the thing has gone crazy-viral. Nearly 15 million views at this point. Quite remarkable.


Obviously, the piece is connecting with people. I would guess that most are connecting positively because they're interested in seeing a better angle on their Christian faith that's different than what they've been seeing. That desire is always good.


My interest is not the thoughts or offering of the young man who posted it. (I do like that it's an offering of discipleship through art, something that has a long and beautiful history in the church.) My interest is the wild response itself.


Why the huge reaction? One can only guess. So I will.


First, I think it is centered in the wonderful, hopeful and youthful idealism that Jesus is about more than what we get from the Christian establishment.


But this is not new. It is what the Reformation was about. It is what's at the center of every new denominational founding. It was seen in the Jesus Movement, from which I came.


It is what Gandhi was saying when he said he would happily become a Christian if he ever met one.


Same with Bono: "Yeah, I'd break bread and wine. If there was a church I could receive in."


It sounds good and aspirational, but it can also be horribly arrogant. It makes very clear who gets it and who doesn't, elevating "us" over "you people." And doing that has always given us a good feeling. In fact, it was exactly what the Pharisees were about.


You see, Jesus' own circle would not satisfy either Gandhi or Bono because imperfection and short-coming are inherent in anything that involves humans. And the church is God's bride made of exactly that: humans who live between the "already" of Christ's saving work and the "not yet" of His full redemption. That's the way it is. Settle in for it until the fullness of time comes.


Now, I know the young man who posted his video poetry is not arrogant. He has a refreshingly humble and teachable heart, as demonstrated in his reaction to and interaction with Kevin DeYoung surrounding Kevin's thoughtful reaction to the post.


But I would surmise that many who have forwarded it to friends and shared it on Facebook have done so as a rage against the machine that happens to be a form of Christianity that they don't care for. It's rock throwing and all generations have done it to varying degrees. We must come to terms that if the question is "What do you think Christianity should be like?" your answer doesn't really matter. Sorry. It's SO not about you. The question for every Christian is rather: What does our Lord desire?


Yes, the young man in the video is right in spirit, but quite wrong in many of the facts. These shortcomings are expected and somewhat excusable due to his youth, both in age and time following Christ. But his viewers—those who have forwarded the video in the millions—have a larger duty toward discernment.


So let's ask the big question. Does Jesus hate religion? Well, depends on what you're talking about, which this poem never really clarifies.


Jesus' biggest tussle was with the religious leaders of the day. The ones who thought they had God all figured out and confined snugly in their particular box. In fact, they are the ones that had Him killed. (Matt:26:62-66).


But that's not all there is to the story. Jesus was a good Jewish boy. He went in for all the religious trappings of His faith. I like the way Kevin DeYoung puts it:


Jesus was a Jew. He went to services at the synagogue. He observed Jewish holy days. He did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill them (Matt. 5:17). He founded the church (Matt. 16:18). He established church discipline (Matt. 18:15-20). He instituted a ritual meal (Matt. 26:26-28). He told his disciples to baptize people and to teach others to obey everything he commanded (Matt. 28:19-20). He insisted that people believe in him and believe certain things about him (John 3:16-18;8:24). If religion is characterized by doctrine, commands, rituals, and structure, then Jesus is not your go-to guy for hating religion.

His parents were good Jews and He honored his parents to the end. Look at the major parts of his young life explained in the Gospels. They are primarily stories about the various ceremonies faithful Jewish parents did with their children—circumcision and presentation in the Temple. Luke 2:39 says approvingly, "When Joseph and Mary did everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned" to their home town. Jesus and His family did the religious things. His followers have as well since the day He left us.


If you want Jesus, you have to take him for who He was. You can't re-construct a stripped down, organic anti-corporate version of what you think He should be. Jesus' gospel is a scandal to all of us, the hipsters and the geezers. It's different than your fabulous pair of pre-worn skinny jeans.


James tells us about religion, that there is some religion that God is quite big on.


So it's not a question of Jesus and religion or Jesus minus religion. It's Jesus and what kind of religion. And this is a bit of the problem with the "Just give me Jesus" and the "Jesus Plus Nothing" approach to faith. We'd like to make it all that simple. Jesus never did. He just didn't. He gives His church certain trappings for good reason.


Does the system of religion (of belief and practice) take you regularly to Christ, compelling you to cast yourselves before him in adoration and upon him in desperation? Or does it given you a false sense of your own self-sufficiency and superiority based on the system itself because it fits with your sense of right?


One is what each of us need. The other is rooted in the original and devastating sin of pride. So no, religion is not the problem. Our rewriting the script is.


Christ—and his Father—gave ALL for His beloved Bride, the Church. She is not beautiful. She is not refined. In fact, God's word clearly describes her as a whore. (Read Hosea 2, Jeremiah 2, Ezechiel 16.)


But this will not always be. For it is written (Revelation 19):


6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

"Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear."
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God's holy people.)
9 Then the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!" And he added, "These are the true words of God."

This is the story of the Gospel. It is God's story and the story of His Beloved. It is therefore, our story. And because of the promise, He will not give up on her. Therefore, neither can His followers. That is what we are called to as Christians.


So let's put down the rocks and embrace Her.


Glenn T. Stanton is the Director of Family Formation Studies at Focus on the Family and the author of several books, including The Ring Makes All the Difference.


Copyright © 2012 Christianity Today. Click for reprint information.



http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2012/januaryweb-only/religion-vs-jesus.html
 
It is what Gandhi was saying when he said he would happily become a Christian if he ever met one.

Same with Bono: "Yeah, I'd break bread and wine. If there was a church I could receive in."

Bono and Gandhi and Ronin Truth aren't unbelievers because they haven't met any Christians that meet their standards. They aren't Christians because they hate the God of this universe and God's judgment rests on them.
 
Bono and Gandhi and Ronin Truth aren't unbelievers because they haven't met any Christians that meet their standards. They aren't Christians because they hate the God of this universe and God's judgment rests on them.

Is that code? And there is the conservative judgements referred to in the OP. :p

I SWAG you are just Bible arguing, yet again. Pathetic. :(


Silly Sola_Fide post score +1.
 
Is that code? And there is the conservative judgements referred to in the OP. :p

I SWAG you are just Bible arguing, yet again. Pathetic. :(


Silly Sola_Fide post score +1.

No, it's not code. And you are arguing with Jesus again:

John 8:23-24

But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM HE, you will indeed die in your sins.”

You, Ronin, will die in your sins because you do not believe that Jesus is God and Savior.
 
Tolstoy on Jesus versus Christianity

Tolstoy highlighted like Bonhoeffer the gap between Christianity as practiced and Christ's words as preached.

Another reason [Christ's doctrine is not understood] is the mistaken notion that it is impracticable, and ought to be replaced by the doctrine of love for humanity. But the principal reason, which is the source of all the other mistaken ideas about it, is the notion that Christianity is a doctrine which can be accepted or rejected without any change of life.

Men who are used to the existing order of things, who like it and dread its being changed, try to take the doctrine as a collection of revelations and rules which one can accept without their modifying one's life. While Christ's teaching is not only a doctrine which gives rules which a man must follow, it unfolds a new meaning in life, and defines a whole world of human activity quite different from all that has preceded it and appropriate to the period on which man is entering. (Leo Tolstoy, The kingdom of God is within you (Casell, 1894) at 110.)

However, Tolstoy developed in 1894 a reading of Jesus that saw political and social implications of Jesus' doctrines:

We think to-day that the requirements of the Christian doctrine—of universal brotherhood, suppression of national distinctions, abolition of private property, and the strange injunction of non-resistance to evil by force—demand what is impossible. But it was just the same thousands of years ago, with every social or even family duty, such as the duty of parents to support their children, of the young to maintain the old, of fidelity in marriage. Id., at 112.


Technically, Jesus said His kingdom was not a political one, but instead is "within you" - in your spirit. Thus, we cannot jump to a conclusion that Tolstoy meant to endorse violent revolution / political action. Tolstoy's life was one of example -- as he shed his riches and gave them to the poor -- to the dismay of his wife.


What Tolstoy intended to spread was that if we had a moral change in our hearts relying upon Jesus, and this spiritual kingdom was found among the followers of Jesus, then the world might follow our example. But it would be a misreading of Tolstoy or Jesus to suggest Jesus believes we need to reform the state to adopt principles that would promote universal brotherhood, end of nation-states, abolishing private property, and not resisting evil by force. Rather, we need to reform ourselves and this might lead the world to seek after the moral high ground of a brotherhood of man rather than war, killing and greed.




http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/reviews/jwo-reviews/257-tolstoy-on-jesus-v-christianity.html
 
Hey look, oh nevermind.........

Silly Sola_Fide post score +1.

Why don't you believe that Jesus is God and Savior? Why do you only cherry pick which words of Him that you like? Do you know that you are going to die in your sins and go to Hell?
 
Why don't you believe that Jesus is God and Savior? Why do you only cherry pick which words of Him that you like? Do you know that you are going to die in your sins and go to Hell?

Thank you for your typical totally worthless OFF TOPIC thread bump post. May I have another?
 
And especially absolutely NEVER, EVER read the actual words of Jesus or follow his commands. :rolleyes:

Matthew 20 gives a command that the author of the article in the OP rejects, in fact Christ's entire commands are predicated on the notion that he owns the vineyard and decides who gets to work, for how long, and how much they are paid. Complain to the Huffington Post guy about his refusal to follow Jesus' commands, I'm not the one rejecting them.

Whistling past the cemetery?

If you'd ever bothered reading the synoptic Gospels, you'd know that the cemetery is not the end of things, and I'm not superstitious enough to validate such an asinine statement like this with any kind of positive acknowledgment.

Just quit babbling about things that you clearly don't understand and take me to your leader already. lol
 
Matthew 20 gives a command that the author of the article in the OP rejects, in fact Christ's entire commands are predicated on the notion that he owns the vineyard and decides who gets to work, for how long, and how much they are paid. Complain to the Huffington Post guy about his refusal to follow Jesus' commands, I'm not the one rejecting them.



If you'd ever bothered reading the synoptic Gospels, you'd know that the cemetery is not the end of things, and I'm not superstitious enough to validate such an asinine statement like this with any kind of positive acknowledgment.

Just quit babbling about things that you clearly don't understand and take me to your leader already. lol


50 Commands of Christ


Whut?
 
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