If we want your money, we’ll take your money.

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If we want your money, we’ll take your money.

Crimes That Are Not Illegal

https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2018/03/08/crimes-not-illegal/#comment-680855

By eric - March 8, 2018

It’s not illegal (yet) to carry cash – in any amount – so how is it that armed government workers have acquired the power to simply steal it?

And why aren’t Americans in the streets over this?

The theft – there’s no sugar-coating it – is performed in almost exactly the same manner as an ordinary street mugging, with this one critical difference: The victim is legally forbidden the right to defend himself.

An armed government worker approaches and uses the implied threat of lethal violence to corner his victim. Perhaps – but not necessarily – on the pretext that some statute or other has been transgressed. An out-of-date inspection sticker. “Speeding.” It can be almost anything – or nothing.

The approach is mere formality; of the same species as the thug in an alley asking his soon-to-be-victim whether he’s got a cigarette he can “borrow.”

It is not uncommon for armed government workers to “detain” people who’ve committed no violation of any statute nor given any tangible lawful reason to suspect they may have. It is enough, nowadays, for an armed government worker to claim that “someone called” – and even that excuse is not necessary, as a practical matter.

Armed government workers are . . . armed. They are government workers. We are not permitted to ignore them. We do so at our peril.

So, you have been “detained” or “pulled over” or perhaps forced to stop your car for a random inspection by armed government workers at a “checkpoint.”

You are carrying a cash – perhaps more cash than can comfortably fit in your wallet. So you have it in an envelope in the glovebox or in a bag on the seat beside you or in a backpack, or whatever. But it’s simply cash – and regardless of the amount, it’s not illegal to carry cash.

As if that mattered.

The ugly fact is that cash in any amount is subject to “civil forfeiture” – the euphemism used by the armed government workers who perform this legalized theft.

The claim used to justify the forfeiture is that mere possession of cash – especially “excessive” amounts of cash, but not necessarily – is inherently “suspicious.”

Not of anything specifically. It is just “suspicious” to be carrying cash.

And the exact amount which is “suspicious” – vs. not – has never been defined in law. It is defined in practice according to the whim of armed government workers.

Which means it can be any amount at all.

Usually, it is large amounts which are deemed “suspicious” by armed government workers, but because there is no particular standard, the potential victims of this business cannot know in advance how much cash, exactly, is “suspicious” and thus avoid carrying it, as a precaution to avoid forfeiture.

It is a measure of tyranny when the law is whatever the enforcers of law say it is, according to their whim. And in the United States, today, an armed government worker has merely to declare that he regards the amount of cash he finds in your possession to be “suspicious” or “excessive” and – presto! – it is no longer in your possession.

It is now in his possession.

The pretext given is that the cash is presumptive evidence of illegal activity.

Generally, this is taken to mean (arbitrarily) illegal drug activity. But that doesn’t really matter since it is not necessary to even charge the victim with a drug or any other offense – not even jaywalking – much less convict him of an offense, before his money is “forfeit.”

The mere presumption of illegal activity is sufficient.

Let that sink in.

No charge, no trial. No conviction. Just “forfeiture.” On the basis of a presumption that you have done something illegal. Despite your not having been adjudicated guilty of anything.

And the attorney general of the United States endorses this business. “I love that program,” exults Jeff Sessions. “We had so much fun taking drug dealers’ money . . . what’s wrong with that?”

Sessions presumably went to law school. He therefore ought to know that asserting someone is a “drug dealer” (or a “drunk” or a “terrorist”) isn’t the same thing as having proven it. And that – in civilized societies – establishing guilt generally precedes punishment.

Well, it used to.

And the really Kafkesque thing is that attempting to hide cash from these lawless predators – in a secret compartment, for example – is itself a separate crime! Even if you haven’t got any cash (or arbitrarily illegal drugs) or any other illegal thing, your vehicle is potentially “forfeit” in the event such a compartment is discovered.

In other words, you are not allowed to hide money – or even your sunglasses – from thieves.

If we want your money, we’ll take your money.

That line is taken from the 1972 film, Deliverance. It is spoken by the deranged backwoodsman who eventually sodomizes Ned Beatty’s character.

What’s happening on the roads of America is hardly much different.
 
I track currency through Where's George? There are thousands of us, and we are generally cash spenders. Many of us have been doing this for a long time. Some people have over a million bills entered. I have never heard of one incident where a Georger has had money confiscated by government. I have seen baggage screeners do a double-take when my cash bundles pass across their screens, but nobody has ever asked a single question.

I have no problem explaining why I carry cash. 1. I have a hobby to support. 2. If someone steals my cash, that's all they get. If they steal me debit card, they steal access to my whole life.
 
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There are Georgers who take road trips and enter bills in every zip code they pass through. They have laptop and money spread out on the seat of the car. I have watched Georgers trade thousands of dollars across a table in a restaurant with police sitting right in the next booth. Nobody has ever had a problem.

We trade right out in public at baseball games and museums. Again, nobody ever has a problem.

My bag has been searched at sports events in Atlanta, St. Louis, NYC, and Nashville. Armed police standing right by. It's all small bills. Never a single problem.
 
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There are Georgers who take road trips and enter bills in every zip code they pass through. They have laptop and money spread out on the seat of the car. I have watched Georgers trade thousands of dollars across a table in a restaurant with police sitting right in the next booth. Nobody has ever had a problem.

We trade right out in public at baseball games and museums. Again, nobody ever has a problem.

My bag has been searched at sports events in Atlanta, St. Louis, NYC, and Nashville. Armed police standing right by. It's all small bills. Never a single problem.

Uh huh...and?

The fact that most people don't get their money and assets stolen does not negate the fact that cops steal more than robbers.
 
There was not one evidentiary fact in the article. Not one.

It's not suspicious to carry money. If it was the WG? forums would be full of stories. I'm considered something of a heavy hitter in my state, and certainly in my part of the state, ranked in the top 5 consistentely I'm in the top 200 in the world with over 100k bills entered over the last 11 years. There are people with over a million bills entered. Never a single problem.

Although some of the business owners have had their businesses broken into by thieves, nobody has had their cash confiscated by police. Never.

I would say our collective experience is probably stronger than the claims in the OP.
 
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'Loophole' Helps N.H. Law Enforcement Net Millions Through Civil Asset Forfeiture

By TODD BOOKMAN • MAR 5, 2018

On October 3rd, 2016, around 7:45 at night, a New Hampshire State Trooper pulled over a red Hyundai with Massachusetts plates heading northbound on I-95.

According to the police report, the car was going 66-mph in a 65-mph zone, and was tailgating behind a pickup truck. The driver of the car, a man named Alexander Temple, appeared nervous. The trooper noticed his hands were shaking.

Temple gave the officer permission to search the car, and in the trunk, the trooper found $46,000, all in twenties, inside of a Whole Foods paper bag.

Temple told the officer he picked up the cash from his sister, but when police called his sister, she said that wasn’t true.

A canine unit was called in, and a dog named Gauge sniffed the car. However, Gauge didn’t turn up any drugs. Aside from tailgating, Alex Temple hadn’t apparently broken any laws.

That didn’t stop law enforcement from confiscating the money.

“It appears that the government is of the view that it is illegal to be traveling with $46,000 in cash,” says Gilles Bissonnette, a lawyer with the ACLU of New Hampshire.

“And it is of course not illegal to be traveling with $46,000 in cash. Law enforcement should not be able to take people’s money simply by assuming, without concrete evidence, that is drug related, simply due to its size.”

The legal maneuver that allows the government to seize money in these cases is called civil asset forfeiture. It’s a controversial technique that law enforcement says helps ensure criminal rings are starved of cash, but is also a system that has come under fire for abuse and questionable seizures.

In New Hampshire, civil asset forfeiture has resulted in millions of dollars transferred to police departments, including some unexpected windfalls for small towns.

Map: Click the towns to see money received by NH law enforcement through a U.S. Department of Justice program from 2010-2016

These cases can be brought in either state and federal courts, with each system setting its own guidelines. In 2016, New Hampshire lawmakers tightened its statute. The new rules only permit forfeitures after a person is arrested, charged and found guilty of a crime. In essence, civil forfeiture was banned, allowing for only criminal forfeiture cases to proceed.

New Hampshire’s new rules came as states across the country are re-thinking the civil asset forfeiture system, the result, in part, of several high profile investigations which uncovered widespread abuse. Backers of the tighter rules, including many libertarian-leaning groups, criticize forfeiture for creating what they consider the wrong incentives for law enforcement, labeling it ‘policing for profit.’

New Hampshire’s new rules, though, don’t apply to federal civil asset forfeiture cases.

In practice, that means all a state trooper or local cop needs to do is call in federal partners, such as the FBI or Homeland Security, and have them seize the money, even if there isn’t an arrest and conviction.

That’s what happened with Alex Temple’s money, which is now moving through the federal court system under the case name U.S. vs. $46,000.

“It’s a loophole. There is definitely a loophole that allows state and local law enforcement to bypass state policy set by our legislature,” says Greg Moore, state director of Americans for Prosperity New Hampshire.

He, along with the ACLU, pushed for the stricter state laws in 2016. According to Moore, the advocacy wasn’t based on any specific case of New Hampshire fraud, but rather a philosophical belief about the role of government.

“If the government is going to take people’s money away, there should be a high bar-- there should be a high bar,” says Moore. “And if you are suggesting that this money was a derivative of a crime, then there should be the conviction of that crime in order to start seizing and forfeiting people’s money.”

Under the Obama Administration, there was a reduction in some types of federal asset forfeiture cases. But under President Trump, and his Attorney General Jeff Sessions, the U.S Department of Justice is expanding its use.

“I love that program. We had so much fun taking drug dealers’ money and passing it out to people trying to put drug dealers in jail,” said Sessions during a speech. “What’s wrong with that?”

From the government and law enforcement’s perspective, civil asset forfeiture is a no-brainer.

“There are a number of reasons for this...one is to deter criminal activity,” says John Farley, who works in the U.S. Attorney’s office in Concord.

“Another is to make sure that people are not able to maintain the proceeds of their criminal activity, so that crime does not pay.”

If someone made money off of something illegal, be it selling drugs or running a ponzi scheme, reasonable people would agree that they shouldn’t get to keep that money. But what about murkier cases, like that involving unexplained cash in a grocery bag?

Farley couldn’t comment on the case of Alex Temple, which his office is handling. He did say the government is not going bring forward cases it doesn’t think it can win. And all of these cases, in the end, are decided by a federal judge or jury--there is due process to ensure people’s property rights are protected.

“If someone has a really legitimate defense, if they really truly were an innocent owner, if there is a legitimate explanation for why someone has this large quantity of cash, we’re not going to just sit back and wait for a trial to see what happens,” says Farley. “We’re going to take that very seriously in how we assess what to do with that case.”

The U.S. Attorney’s office in New Hampshire says that at any given time, there are roughly one to two dozen active asset forfeiture cases. Even with that relatively low number, the money does add up.

Since 2010, an NHPR analysis found that New Hampshire law enforcement departments received nearly $10.5 million through what’s called the federal Equitable Sharing Program. As you’d expect, bigger agencies including the Manchester Police Department and N.H. State Police receive large payouts.

But there are also some outliers, like the Kingston, Plaistow and Atkinson Departments: small towns that, altogether, have received more than $600,000 in seized assets.

Michael Carignan is deputy chief of the Nashua Police Department, where forfeitures fund the force’s drug unit, as well as drug court and other community-facing programs.

He opposed the 2016 tightening of the state’s civil forfeiture rules, and says seizures are simply the result of good policing.

“We are not in the business of going to someone’s house, ‘hey, you got $100,000 in the mattress? Give it here, we are taking it.’ It just doesn’t happen that way,” he says. “So I just think there is an anti-government movement that they do not like asset forfeiture.”

As for the case of the cash found in a Whole Foods shopping bag, there’s been an interesting wrinkle. Alex Temple, who was driving the car, hasn’t stepped forward to challenge the case. Instead, someone named Edward Phipps has filed a petition claiming that the cash is actually his. In court paperwork, the Maine resident claims the money was lawfully obtained, although he hasn’t yet explained how he got it, why it was in twenty dollar bills, or why it was in Mr. Temple’s trunk.

That information will likely come out during the trial of the U.S. vs. $46,000, scheduled to start in December of this year.
http://nhpr.org/post/loophole-helps...lions-through-civil-asset-forfeiture#stream/0
 
“We are not in the business of going to someone’s house, ‘hey, you got $100,000 in the mattress? Give it here, we are taking it.’ It just doesn’t happen that way,” he says. “So I just think there is an anti-government movement that they do not like asset forfeiture.”

So we are talking about drug dealers being suspicous. And their assets are seized. Okay. That's no reason to to go all Chicken Little and say the sky is falling because it just isn't falling on everyone.

Liberty people can't have the reputation of being alarmists. What the government is doing with regard to metadata collection on innocent American citizens is way more of a problem for me than civil asset forfeiture for people who are convicted of crimes.

The regular person on the street does not have money taken away just because they are carrying it.
 
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There was not one evidentiary fact in the article. Not one.

It's not suspicious to carry money. If it was the WG? forums would be full of stories. I'm considered something of a heavy hitter in my state, and certainly in my part of the state, ranked in the top 5 consistentely I'm in the top 200 in the world with over 100k bills entered over the last 11 years. There are people with over a million bills entered. Never a single problem.

Although some of the business owners have had their businesses broken into by thieves, nobody has had their cash confiscated by police. Never.

I would say our collective experience is probably stronger than the claims in the OP.

No, I don't think so. Civil asset forfeiture is a well established fact. You saying you haven't seen it doesn't negate that.
 
So we are talking about drug dealers being suspicous. And their assets are seized. Okay. That's no reason to to go all Chicken Little and say the sky is falling because it just isn't falling on everyone.

Liberty people can't have the reputation of being alarmists. What the government is doing with regard to metadata collection on innocent American citizens is way more of a problem for me than civil asset forfeiture for people who are convicted of crimes.

The regular person on the street does not have money taken away just because they are carrying it.

The guy in the above article was convicted of nothing and still $46,000 is in police custody.
 
Is there seriously someone so benighted as to attempt to argue that civil asset forfeiture is rare and not a serious problem? On a sight dediicated to the pursuit of liberty? SMGDH

And, even if it were rare, which it most certainly is not, even ONE occurance is an affront to liberty and a flagrant violation of both the 4th and 5th Amendments. What the fuck has this place come to?
 
“We are not in the business of going to someone’s house, ‘hey, you got $100,000 in the mattress? Give it here, we are taking it.’ It just doesn’t happen that way,” he says. “So I just think there is an anti-government movement that they do not like asset forfeiture.” -Michael Carignan - Deputy Chief

Fuck fucking you, fuckstick cop.

That is EXACTLY what you do, asshat.

In 2012, an elderly Indianapolis woman's son was charged with drug crimes, and officials froze her bank account and tried to take her home.

Straughn Gorman, whose motorhome was pulled over in Nevada twice and subjected to a dog-sniffing test for narcotics (which came up empty). Police kept the $167,000 in cash that they found, however.

Hank Mosley and Tanya Andrews, Philadelphia residents whose boarding house was raided by police targeting a drug dealer. Although they had nothing to do with the dealer, police also entered Mr. Mosley’s and Ms. Andrews’ apartments, seizing $1,500 and $2,000, respectively.

James Huff, an 81-year-old Nevada resident pulled over for a minor traffic violation. A narcotics search turned up no drugs, but did yield $8,400 in cash, which police then took.

I could shut the board's servers down with case after case after case of innocent people having their property taken by asshole cops, just like you, you pretentious prick.

imrs.php
 
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So we are talking about drug dealers being suspicous. And their assets are seized. Okay. That's no reason to to go all Chicken Little and say the sky is falling because it just isn't falling on everyone.

Liberty people can't have the reputation of being alarmists. What the government is doing with regard to metadata collection on innocent American citizens is way more of a problem for me than civil asset forfeiture for people who are convicted of crimes.

The regular person on the street does not have money taken away just because they are carrying it.

This is amazing, so what you're claiming is that police don't abuse their power.
 
The regular person on the street does not have money taken away just because they are carrying it.

Yes, they do, all the time, I've spent the better part of ten years on this site documenting it, day in and day out.

All for nothing, of course...even among "us", nobody cares.
 
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Is there seriously someone so benighted as to attempt to argue that civil asset forfeiture is rare and not a serious problem? On a sight dediicated to the pursuit of liberty? SMGDH

And, even if it were rare, which it most certainly is not, even ONE occurance is an affront to liberty and a flagrant violation of both the 4th and 5th Amendments. What the fuck has this place come to?

We're toast, very simply.

Freedom is not popular, even among us, the extreme of extreme, One Percenters of Liberty
 
I think we have discovered The Texan's sock account.
 
So we are talking about drug dealers being suspicous. And their assets are seized. Okay. That's no reason to to go all Chicken Little and say the sky is falling because it just isn't falling on everyone.

Liberty people can't have the reputation of being alarmists. What the government is doing with regard to metadata collection on innocent American citizens is way more of a problem for me than civil asset forfeiture for people who are convicted of crimes.

The regular person on the street does not have money taken away just because they are carrying it.

You should probably do a little more research before coming into this thread and accusing other members of not knowing what the hell it is they are talking about.

ETA for edification: https://www.google.com/search?q=civ...CLYK45gL4-qvADA&start=0&sa=N&biw=1229&bih=607
 
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Liberty people can't have the reputation of being alarmists.

For good damn reason.

We are consistently shown to be right.

What the government is doing with regard to metadata collection on innocent American citizens is way more of a problem for me than civil asset forfeiture

The exact same reasoning from government is used to justify spying on all of us, as it is to steal our stuff

for people who are convicted of crimes.

Are you seriously claiming you are not aware that many, many, many of these cases involve people that have their property stolen by cops and have not been convicted of anything, in many cases no charges were even filed.
 
I understand euphemia's reaction though, it's the same as Teh Collinz reaction when I tell him pilots will be a thing of the past in a short number of years due to automation, after he has spent much money and time learning to fly for a living.

Euphemia likes to "George", that is tracking stamped dollar bills as they travel around.

She sees stories like this, and the sick feeling in the gut sets in, like riding a rollercoaster too fast, when it hits you, that something the everfucking government is doing may effect you, directly.

We all have these moments, some more than others.

I get them all the time, every time the media spools up and out of control over a shooting, or a car crash, or a "terror" attack.

I know right away, that no matter what, somehow I will lose more freedom from whatever it is and probably some very real property, employment or economic opportunity as well.

It's like walking down a wooded trail and all of sudden hearing a rattler in the weeds.

So to alleviate that feeling, people try to dismiss or deny it, the same way they try to deny or dismiss a terminal illness diagnosis.

That's not a deadly rattlesnake, it's just wind in the leaves.

I'm a good person, I can't have cancer.

I'm just a hobbyist, cops can't seize my Georges.

Taken to the extreme, it was what Jews felt cowering in closets and under beds when the local Oberführer and his men kicked down the door in the middle of the night
 
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I understand euphemia's reaction though, it's the same as Teh Collinz reaction when I tell him pilots will be a thing of the past in a short number of years due to automation, after he has spent much money and time learning to fly for a living.

Euphemia likes to "George", that is tracking stamped dollar bills as they travel around.

She sees stories like this, and the sick feeling in the gut sets in, like riding a rollercoaster too fast, when it hits you, that something the everfucking government is doing may effect you, directly.

We all have these moments, some more than others.

I get them all the time, every time the media spools up and out of control over a shooting, or a car crash, or a "terror" attack.

I know right away, that no matter what, somehow I will lose more freedom from whatever it is and probably some very real property, employment or economic opportunity as well.

It's like walking down a wooded trail and all of sudden hearing a rattler in the weeds.

So to alleviate that feeling, people try to dismiss or deny it, the same way they try to deny or dismiss a terminal illness diagnosis.

That's not a deadly rattlesnake, it's just wind in the leaves.

I'm a good person, I can't have cancer.

I'm just a hobbyist, cops can't seize my Georges.

Taken to the extreme, it was what Jews felt cowering in closets and under beds when the local Oberführer and his men kicked down the door in the middle of the night


Something about Jews in Germany in the 1930s and early 40s comes to mind. Warsaw Ghetto was a specific example.
 
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