Free State: For those still trying to figure out "which state"

I am quite new to the Free State Project.

I knew in the past when the first members were deciding on a state they debating quite a lot, but I never realized how much and how in-depth they got.

Thanks for the link to the links. Hopefully some more people on this board will find them useful.

Cheers. :)
 
Meh. The more I see people on RPF posting on and on and on about how "New Hampshire is the only Free State Project" the more I am inclined to reject NH as an option. Call it kneejerk, call it reactionary, or just call it annoyed. :shrug: But FWIW, I tend to get the impression that the FS NH people are trying to co-opt RPF for the agenda of propagandizing against (IMO better alternatives like) Wyoming, and for every such post, the chances of me moving to NH drop lower, and lower, and lower every time. Before RP08 I was probably 60/40 WY/NH and now the chances of me moving to NH are about nil.

Take it for what it's worth, but that's my honest feelings on the matter.
 
I bumped this up in response to reading through these forums reading the discussions people have had over which state is the best.

This debate has already been had. The link in the opening post of this thread leads to a page which lists many more links to threads which are full of posts debating the pro's and con's of each state. These debates can only save you time in helping you make a more informed decision on whatever state you choose to move to, whether it be Wyoming, Alaska, New Hampshire, Montana or wherever.

When NH was voted on as 'the state', 1,000 members left the FSP. Some of them created http://www.freestatewyoming.org (FSW), others moved to Montana (http://www.montana-alliance-for-liberty.org/). Both these movements, including Idaho, have some members associated with the Free West Alliance (FWA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_West_Alliance).
 
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I think population and population density should have been the top priorities. Also, more consideration should have been taken to the political leanings of the surrounding states. I can't imagine that the Northeast is generally more free than the west. Wyoming looks like the perfect place to me...
 
Yeah, I investigated all that. I still think that there are two diffferent belts that are better.

For cost of living, farming, and water, the belt from Rolla, MO through Springfield, Tulsa, OKC, Dallas and Austin is best.

For population density and climate, the Area From the coast btw Seattle to portland, out to the Stretch Between SLC and Billings is best (that includes WA, OR, ID, MT, WY)

I decided on the NW, I land in Seattle in August, and will start working on getting rural (or at least buy some land to vacation upon) as soon as it is economically feasible.

There were alot of assumptions in the FSP calculations that I simply dont agree with
 
I went up a few weeks ago set on moving right away but have had to put those plans on hold for now due to some family obligations that were sprung on me. I'm still young (relatively) so I'm still staying in the loop and will have to see what the future holds I guess.

I'm still an advocate for the FSP, they really do have their ducks in a row. More so than you can imagine without really looking into all they have done, all their projects, etc.

Now I have to stay in VA for a bit but it has caused me to rededicate myself to working in VA to fight for liberty. Knowing I'm not moving soon spurred me back into VA politics.
 
Meh. The more I see people on RPF posting on and on and on about how "New Hampshire is the only Free State Project" the more I am inclined to reject NH as an option. Call it kneejerk, call it reactionary, or just call it annoyed. :shrug: But FWIW, I tend to get the impression that the FS NH people are trying to co-opt RPF for the agenda of propagandizing against (IMO better alternatives like) Wyoming, and for every such post, the chances of me moving to NH drop lower, and lower, and lower every time. Before RP08 I was probably 60/40 WY/NH and now the chances of me moving to NH are about nil.

Take it for what it's worth, but that's my honest feelings on the matter.


Yup. That's the attitude I'm talking about.
 
For the people who say "the debate is already done," the majority of us were not in on that debate and have opinions of our own.
 
I'm still a huge fan of the Free State Project, even though I've decided to revoke my "First 1000" pledge after Ron Paul did so poorly there in January. It's not even that fact, but the fact that so many free-staters didn't campaign or even vote for him because they're "apolitical". And, like Ron Paul himself had said, a lot more Massholes are moving there than Free Staters.

So I'm taking a "wait and see" approach, but I do still believe it is "the best hope for liberty in our lifetimes". Unless somebody starts a "Free Island Project" or a "Free Space Station Project" or something...
 
I do respect what you are trying to do in New Hampshire. I do think this method is the best way to take back a piece of freedom. I'm under no illusion (unlike a lot of new libertarians) that we can turn a majority of the country into Ron Paul Republicans.

The sad truth is that our numbers are too few and spread out over the entire U.S. This makes us politically ineffective. Why do we think that enough people can be "converted" to our side to make a difference? What if they like things just the way they are now? The ONLY solution is for us to relocate to the same area-preferably to the same county. Anything else just isn't gonna happen in our lifetime. Things didn't get this bad overnight and it is gonna take decades to improve-if that's even possible.

I don't want freedom for my great great grandchildren. I want freedom now. That said, I don't think NH was the wisest choice. It has 2.7 times the voters as WY and 23 times the population density. The purpose was to get enough people to relocate to change the politics of the area. FSP would have been so much more effective in WY.

I look at Niobrara County in WY with a total population of 2407. Just 1000 people organized could control the politics of the entire county. Heck, if you opened a trailer park or something like that, then you could just have people register to vote and use that the trailer park as their address. They wouldn't even have to live in WY. I know there are more than 1000 people registered on this forum. We could take one county for freedom at a time using this method.

I'm sure once the word got out that this was actually working, freedom minded people would flock to the areas.
 
I do respect what you are trying to do in New Hampshire. I do think this method is the best way to take back a piece of freedom. I'm under no illusion (unlike a lot of new libertarians) that we can turn a majority of the country into Ron Paul Republicans.

The sad truth is that our numbers are too few and spread out over the entire U.S. This makes us politically ineffective. Why do we think that enough people can be "converted" to our side to make a difference? What if they like things just the way they are now? The ONLY solution is for us to relocate to the same area-preferably to the same county. Anything else just isn't gonna happen in our lifetime. Things didn't get this bad overnight and it is gonna take decades to improve-if that's even possible.

I don't want freedom for my great great grandchildren. I want freedom now. That said, I don't think NH was the wisest choice. It has 2.7 times the voters as WY and 23 times the population density. The purpose was to get enough people to relocate to change the politics of the area. FSP would have been so much more effective in WY.

I look at Niobrara County in WY with a total population of 2407. Just 1000 people organized could control the politics of the entire county. Heck, if you opened a trailer park or something like that, then you could just have people register to vote and use that the trailer park as their address. They wouldn't even have to live in WY. I know there are more than 1000 people registered on this forum. We could take one county for freedom at a time using this method.

I'm sure once the word got out that this was actually working, freedom minded people would flock to the areas.


I agree that WY is a good choice for some. I encourage people to check out the forum there at http://www.freestatewyoming.org/. They're alive and well and doing good work. WY versus NH is a trade off. You need fewer people in WY because there are fewere natives, but it's HARDER to get people to move because there are fewer jobs. It balances out. In addition, it can be harder to organize collective action over a large state like Wyoming or Montana (that's what I've heard from people who have moved from large Western states to New Hampshire).

Here's how I see it. The best states are New Hampshire, Wyoming, Montana and Alaska. Each have their strengths and weaknesses, but the main trade off is that all states except NH have few jobs, while NH has just a tiny bit more people than the other three. That's basically it in a nut shell. The other thing to consider is NH and WY both have active and successful organizations on the ground already, whereas Alaska and Montana do not. The third thing to consider is whether the activists on the ground are too spread out to work together (which would leave you just as alone as you are now).

@GunnyFreedom. I do talk about the FSP everywhere I go. It's not because I think the NH FSP is the only way but, in my mind, it's the best one. I agree with the post I quoted above that we need to unite somewhere. If that place isn't NH, fine, but we still need to unite SOMEWHERE. So far, the NH FSP is the most effective and successful, but I would LOVE to see other projects spring up and succeed. WY, MT, NH, AK all are good choices, but the question is whether, once you move, other people will greet and follow you. In NH, the answer is a resounding YES!

Pick a state (hopefully NH or WY where there are already organizations present...or start a Montana organization) and then MOVE!

Tell you what, first person to start a Montana FSP gets $10 from me. I'll send you a check from my New Hampshire bank ;)
 
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mass~wholes... and i politely euphemise. you do know inner city new deal "dems...

all our inner city new deal "dems" now are going to florida or santa fe in droves, if not san diego...
all our older true blue democrats are indeed older. call this the mike gravel demographic... they is HIS age!
the people who go north with a deep debt and their lifestyle... are not urban democrats most FDR worshipping
nor are they traditional small town small business republicans...

"mass*wholes"...? :D dems who move because the taxes here impact their incomes as they try for
the type of jobs here whereby husband and wife get on the motrgage treadmill for a very
spacious mcMansion on this acre and a half lot, and if they START to fall behind because one
of the two went part-time or into an unemployment check as they all have 15 credit cards
at a 23 percent interest a clip... well, they move and then because they may have semi-owned
their house or something if the bank doesn't, they try for a tigher budgeted lifestyle
akin to what they once had. this means they start to want the same infra~structure in that there
border town they is at, and i don't mean the canadian border. so you have a reagan democrat and/or neo-con
political mix
decrying taxes and taxachusetts as they UP the taxes for all ancient robert frost quotin' yankees
who still cling to things if not a family farm... this is a cycle that is between 128 and 495.
there are still farms near quabbin, or elsewhere in new england.
 
Six Myths of the Perceived Lower Population Advantage
Karl Beisel
Washington, DC

Introduction

Some FSP members have stated that population is the single most important factor in state choice. Indeed it is – this is why states like California, Texas or Florida, all with very high populations, have been eliminated from consideration at the FSP’s inception. However, population becomes less and less important as it drops. The difference between a state with 500,000 people and one with 1.5 million people, in terms our ability to exert political influence, is not significant once we consider mitigating factors and debunk the myths surrounding this population’s importance, as I now argue.

The Six Myths

Myth #1
In a lower-population state, we can outvote native residents.

Truth: Assuming that all porcupines register to vote, the lowest population state, Wyoming, will have approximately 223,000 registered voters. In order to outvote them in state-wide elections, we would need at least 111,500 of us.


Myth #2
We can make up for the needed votes because the native populations of the most "libertarian" states will embrace our agenda.

Truth: The population at large in all free state candidates are openly hostile to many key portions of our agenda. In order to counter this hostility in the lowest population state, Wyoming, we'll need 91,500 natives to vote with us.

For our most important reforms, these additional votes probably do not exist. For example, in 1994, Wyoming voters rejected 137,397 to 61,980 a ballot initiative to decriminalize gambling. Even with 20,000 additional “YES” votes, the measure would have still failed by a wide margin. (Source: http://soswy.state.wy.us/election/initref.htm)

I expect at least similar levels of opposition to other victimless crime laws, such as narcotics use and prostitution, in all of the candidate states.


Myth #3
In lower-population states, we'll be able to influence others more effectively.

Truth: This myth is often expressed in terms of activist-to-voter ratios. In Wyoming (213,000 voters), that ratio is 1:11. In New Hampshire (567,000 voters), that ratio is 1:28. So, as the theory goes, each person would in effect be “assigned” to sway at least 6 voters in Wyoming, or 14 in New Hampshire.

This theory is in error for two reasons. First, it assumes that all other mitigating factors, such as electoral accessibility, are equal between states. Second, it suggests that 6 people are easier to sway than 14. If political activism were purely a door-to-door affair, this would be true. Yet, most political influence occurs through mass campaigning: letters-to-the-editor, newspaper articles, television and radio ads, flyers, political rallies, or simple party affiliation, or through network campaigning by voters talking with friends and family. Indeed, political influence with the vast majority of voters is only rarely a direct face-to-face affair.

For evidence of this fact, simply ask yourself this question: How many political candidates have you voted for that you have actually talked to prior to the election?


Myth #4
Porcupines will almost always agree and vote as a bloc; we can at least rely on 20,000 favorable votes.

Truth: There are three reasons why we might not rely on all 20,000 porcupine voter bloc 100% of the time:
Porcupines are a diverse group, and do not always agree on every issue.
Some porcupines may vote for someone other than the designated "pro-liberty" candidate for other reasons, such as a perceived ethical/moral lapse, ineffectiveness, or just plain kookiness.
Some porcupines do not vote as a matter of principle.


Myth #5
A lower-population is always more desirable.

Truth: Lower populations typically mean smaller economies. With smaller economies, there are fewer jobs, fewer locally-based business opportunities, and fewer opportunities for highly specialized professions and niche businesses. While a strong economic base is not directly relevant to our goals, it is very important in ensuring that porcupines can become and remain prosperous during our efforts, which are likely to be ongoing for many years or decades.


Myth #6
By moving strategically into the state, we can gain a significant minority in the state house and majorities in the selected local municipal governments.

Truth: This theory holds that a centrally-planned moving strategy will designate certain voting districts as porcupine settlements, directing a certain number of porcupines to those districts, thus guaranteeing State House seats with porcupine votes alone.

Strategic migration is an iffy proposition at best. Already, 20,000+ people have committed to uprooting their lives and moving to a single state. It seems doubtful that even a majority of movers will allow their settlement choices be further limited, thereby limiting employment, housing and lifestyle options.

Also, by failing to integrate with the population at large, we are unlikely to shed our image as outsiders, with untold political, legal, social and economic impacts.

Conclusion
If population alone is a poor predictor of our success, what strategy can we use?

Get libertarians elected – and re-elected!

To do this, we must choose a state that:
Gives us the best opportunities for gaining political experience.
Gives us the best opportunities to gain seats in local and state-wide elected offices.
Has a strong culture of political tolerance for controversial ideas.
Gives us the best opportunities to prosper economically during the years or decades of our effort.


Also see:
http://www.freestateproject.org/about/essay_archive/20000nh.php

"In addition, a multitude of institutional advantages seem to outweigh the population problem. First, New Hampshire has a large state house, the third largest legislature in the English-speaking world. Low district size means that outsiders and independents can win elections by running a good campaign. For example, several Libertarian Party legislators won election to the NH House in the 1990's. The $100 per year salary for NH House representatives ($200 for state senators) ensures that career politicians do not dominate the legislature. The practice of fusion voting, rare in the U.S., allows politicians to run for election with multiple party endorsements, making it easier for third parties to win votes. Biennial elections for all state elective offices ensures strict popular control of government. Despite the fact that New Hampshire has no initiative and referendum process, the ease of getting on the ballot combined with biennial elections for every state office means that virtually every statewide election is a referendum on the policies of the incumbent government. Another institutional advantage is the aforementioned strength of town government. Schooling is an important policy area that activists can change at the local level in New Hampshire. The state constitution forbids unfunded state mandates on local government."


And: (contrary to popular opinion)
Massachusetts Immigrants Keeping New Hampshire Conservative
 
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I think this thread needs a well deserved bump.

Now that Ron Paul has suspended his campaign its time to look at what is realistically possible. And I think everyone needs to realize that there are enough people in this country who love socialism that we will NEVER achieve a majority. Even if we could begin to convince people towards our way of thinking, I don't think there's any way we could see a big difference in any of our lifetimes.

In my opinion, the ONLY way we are ever going to see libertarians as a force is if we band together in a certain area of the country. Like it or not, in this country, the majority rules. And right now libertarian minded people have no majority anywhere. And with the coming Obama presidency, things are just going to get worse. Obama talks like a damn commie and I'm afraid he's going to be our modern day FDR.

We can accomplish so much more if we unite. Even if we could just control a county somewhere we could elect our own sheriff and judges for the area. We could have a little piece of freedom somewhere. Liberty in our lifetime....
 
Has Idaho come up again in the conversation since its impressive showing in the primaries?

I'm not an expert on the western states, but I would think getting 30,000 people in Idaho to vote for Ron Paul after the nomination was wrapped up shows there is potential for a large movement to have an effect there.

An important factor that Wyoming advocates don't seem to worry about is economic potential - there needs to be good jobs available to get anyone to move anywhere. Too a large extent I think rich free-staters who own their own business will have to bring the jobs, but I don't know if this can ever be achieved in the magnitude needed in Wyoming.

The northern tip of Idaho - somewhere in the Sandpoint area - sticks out to me as a prime place to concentrate our efforts.
- The population density is very low so we could easily establish liberty-oriented towns
- It's a tourist attraction because of skiing, etc..., which means money is flowing into it from outside.
- It's about an hour away to Spokane, Washington - a metro area with a half million people which could give it an economic backbone.
- It's an easier, shorter move for any of the young tech-oriented people who live in Washington or Oregon, which represents a big chunk of the enthusiastic Ron Paul base.
- As a long-term bonus, it has a border with Canada and isn't land-locked

Just some thoughts, but I do think we should be looking for a place with lots of people close by, but not actually in the area. This has caused problem for NH with crazy liberals moving in, but in the west this shouldn't be as severe.
 
i think Puerto Rico is the perfect "Free State". Its technically part of the US, and about half the population harbors anti government sentiment. Two towns over there is a mural of an FBI firing squad killing a local hero. It would not at all be difficult to garner major support from all sides with Ron Pauls policy. the only major road block is the language barrier.

The Pro Statehood Party, already coincides with the mainland Republican Party

The Anti Statehood Faction, by default coincides with the Democratic party, but is actually very opposed to socialist nanny state policy

The Independance Party, is really just terrified that if Puerto Rico becomes a state the US government will ruin the Island.

Its pretty easy to see how libertarian ideals from a republican mouth piece will thrive here. All that is required is activism and a bit of money. Municipal governments are so wasteful and corrupt, and many of the people are so uneducated, that will will be a breeze to win over a small town that thrives on tourism first, and then creep our way from one municipality to another before taking the Governors Mansion.
 
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