Egoism vs Natural rights individualist

benny215

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I've been reading some stuff and am not real sure where the line is drawn between a natural rights individualist and an egoist.


Do you deserve natural rights even if you aren't willing to maintain them? Even if someone invades your house and you haven't bought a gun, locked your doors, or done anything to maintain the security of your home, I think to a point you deserved what you got. You alone are responsible for your own security and you're wrong to depend on the morals of others to keep them from robbing your house, or depend on police officers to defend your home for you. If you aren't concerned with defending yourself why should anyone else be? Even tho a lot of people believe a man has a natural right to land, maybe you don't deserve it if you can't protect it.

Anyone have any opinions on this?
 
My understanding is this.

Natural rights are a common ideal we hold as individuals. That we deserve the right to Life, Liberty, Property.

Though murderers and thieves obviously do not hold this same ideal - they are perfectly willing to take your life and or property.


You've come to the perfectly logical conclusion that you must defend your own rights. It's also in your best interests to defend your life liberty and property... so I'm not sure how the two are very different.

This thread should probably be in political philosophy.
 
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I read this before, and didn't see what your conflict was. But I think I get it now.

You're asking: What is the "ought" in the situation for a third party, or society in general? In other words, should the third party step in and defend the property of the lax owner (acting on natural law grounds), or should the third party allow the lax owner to be robbed (every man for himself)?

I say that there is no universal ought. The third party is justified to use reasonable force to defend the lax owner's property, but he has no duty to do so. It depends on the specific life situation of the third party, their goals and means, and their values and desires. We can't claim to know what these subjective values are, therefore we cannot make a determination of the "correct" choice of action.
 
I've been reading some stuff and am not real sure where the line is drawn between a natural rights individualist and an egoist.

Line? What do you mean?

Do you deserve natural rights even if you aren't willing to maintain them?

Deserve? Use of the word implies not only that there is some objective standard for judging such a thing, but that there are people somewhere out there who hold the authority to judge. You should put such silliness out of your mind lest it cause some serious rot to set in.

The notion of rights arises out of the relationships between populations of human beings exceeding unity. If you put more than one person in a place, the question of rights naturally arises because the potential for conflict appears as if out of nothingness. This is the nature of things and it cannot be avoided.

When one derives in their mind the basis for natural rights, an exercise I strongly recommend every human being born do at least once during their lifetime and preferably during their "formative" years, it becomes clear that rights are facts that arise naturally and unavoidably in populations greater than one. There is no issue of "deserving" of which to speak. The only valid and sensible question that follows is whether any given individual is going to choose to respect the rights of his fellows.

I also take some issue with your use of "willing to maintain them". This usage implies a few things I find not only fallacious, but wholly repugnant. Firstly, how does one judge whether another is willing to maintain his rights? What may constitute such maintenance to one man may appear as gross failure in the eyes of another.

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, how do you arrive at the tacit implication that anyone is obliged to "maintain" his rights?

Thirdly, what constitutes maintenance? Where is the standard, who wrote it, and by what authority are the rest of presumably bound maintain our rights in accord with that standard?

Fourthly, another implication of your language is that those who somehow fail to maintain their natural rights may somehow be justly deprived of them. Was this implication intentional or simply the product of language that might stand a little tuning?

Even if someone invades your house and you haven't bought a gun, locked your doors, or done anything to maintain the security of your home, I think to a point you deserved what you got.

And I think you need to reconsider your opinion. If we are endowed with rights then NOBODY holds authority to violate you in any manner including that which you suggest here. That one lives peaceably amongst his fellows, perhaps neglecting certain practical realities that most of the rest of us take for granted, it can in no way follow that he who has brought no harm to others deserves to be violated by virtue of his failure to prepare for such. To my way of thinking it takes a profoundly and sadly demented way of thinking to arrive at your conclusion. It seems clear to me that you need to think about what your position really means. To take it to a logical extreme for the sake of making clear what may otherwise remain hidden to your eyes, imagine a four year old child playing with his friends in his back yard. Perhaps mom is nearby but busily cleaning the house. That child is pretty well incapable of defending himself against and attack by an adult. Were such an adult to invade the yard and beat the child to within an inch of his life, would you deem that he deserved it? If not, then why so when such sorrow befalls the adult?

It is very easy to judge others in these ways, especially when one has not walked a mile or 3000 in their shoes. I gently recommend caution in such matters.

You alone are responsible for your own security

That is not quite right. Others are also responsible for your security from the standpoint that onus rests with each of us not to intentionally or negligently violate the security of others. It is my responsibility not to draw my pistol and shoot you in the head just because I wanted to know what it was like to kill someone. It is my responsibility to exercise reasonable precaution in my activities that I not kill or maim you in the process of operating.

and you're wrong to depend on the morals of others to keep them from robbing your house, or depend on police officers to defend your home for you.

Here we may agree, particularly when looking at these questions as purely pragmatic issues. Others ought not violate your rights, but some will try nevertheless. But if they succeed, how can you say they deserve it? It may be rightly said under some circumstances that one was asking for some ill fortune to befall them, but that is a far cry from asserting they deserved it. The two are not the same by a very long shot. They do not, in fact, have anything of truth in common.

If you aren't concerned with defending yourself why should anyone else be?

Another matter entirely and one answerable only on an individual basis. There are no blanket answers that apply here with equal force and validity for all.

Even tho a lot of people believe a man has a natural right to land, maybe you don't deserve it if you can't protect it.

I suspect you have a lot to learn about language. Do not feel badly - most people do; some of those have been around a good long time, no less.
 
Natural rights clearly exist. This can be readily proven in a lab with basic equipment. Every philosopher from every culture has clearly resolved exactly the same set of natural rights, so they are obvious and absolute.
 
No one deserves natural rights. You just have them.

And this is it. Arguments of "deserve' is irrelevant. The fact is that everyone has natural unalienable rights, even lazy a-holes. And that means no one has the authority to violate those rights.
 
Natural rights clearly exist. This can be readily proven in a lab with basic equipment. Every philosopher from every culture has clearly resolved exactly the same set of natural rights, so they are obvious and absolute.

The only equipment needed is a nominally functional mind and the attitude of honest discovery. These are sufficient for deriving the fundamental basis of human rights and demonstrate that they exist as direct consequences of one human being having contact with another. These natural rights arise in such blatant and obvious fashion as to be apodictic. They stand before us, en-flagrant, yet there has been an endless parade of tyrants throughout human history since the earliest days of human empire that have denied them in preference for their stunted, arbitrary, and morbidly demented assertions of "rights of kings", the "state", and other such similarly criminal nonsense.

One of the truly disturbing developments began to arise in the time of Marx with the brand of mentally derailed "logic" he and his ilk began using to establish what has devolved into the modern forms of psychological tyranny that came into their own in the twentieth century and guided the thoughts and actions of those who brought ignominious doom to well over one hundred million souls in the mechanized and frigidly efficient manner of that era. It continues to this day with ever growing force, brutality, baldness of face, callously mechanical automation, and technological envelopment of the slave class. The advance of technology of the past 150 years, +/-, has been applied more to the perfection of human subjugation and destruction than to all other endeavors put together. No other application of such technologies can begin to compare with that of "government" - the greatest lie of them all and the most powerfully accepted by the greatest number of people.

Speaking of "government", I have of late been wondering whether the acceptance of tyranny has a basis in fundamental brain chemistry and whether, therefore, it can be treated as any other disease. Could there be a dopamine connection? Does the "relief" from issues such as self-responsibility that the self-deceit of belief in "government" provides cause a dopamine rush?
 
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I'd be most appreciative of expanded explanation.

OK, lessee...

If you were the only person in existence, would the notion of "rights" make any sense? No. Why? To answer that, we must know what defines "right". In short, a right is a just claim. Claims exist PRECISELY because more than just one person exists in the world. If one does not stake his claims in some way before his fellows, there is no way for the others to know what is ostensibly "his" v. what is up for grabs. If you are the only person in existence, there are no other people with whom you might conceivably come into conflict and therefore all speak of rights becomes an exercise in moot theater.

Given this, we may clearly see that the entire corpus of the theory of rights arises ONLY because people live amongst each other and that the very nature of our relationships includes the potential for conflicts of many sorts. If I build a house, it is mine by right until such time as I relinquish my claim to it. Were this not so, what in principle exists to stop any random person on the street from moving in and taking over? Nothing. But the existence of rights as a correct and proper conceptual framework that guides our actions and judgments with respect to our interactions with others makes clear my claim to the house such that others may not enter upon the property at their whim and take over.

Without rights there would be violence and chaos because there would be no guideposts to tell us what is correct and what is mistaken. The only reason we need these guidelines is because of the fundamental and immutable nature of the relationships between each man and every other one.

Does this makes sense?
 
Egoist anarchists are worse than communists. Communists at least try to justify theft and enslavement as a benefit for everyone. It's not true, but they're stupid and don't know any better. Egoist anarchists use philosophical bullshit to justify theft, enslavement, rape, murder, or whatever else the evil fuckers want to get away with for nothing but their own pleasure.
 
OK, lessee...

If you were the only person in existence, would the notion of "rights" make any sense? No. Why? To answer that, we must know what defines "right". In short, a right is a just claim. Claims exist PRECISELY because more than just one person exists in the world. If one does not stake his claims in some way before his fellows, there is no way for the others to know what is ostensibly "his" v. what is up for grabs. If you are the only person in existence, there are no other people with whom you might conceivably come into conflict and therefore all speak of rights becomes an exercise in moot theater.

Given this, we may clearly see that the entire corpus of the theory of rights arises ONLY because people live amongst each other and that the very nature of our relationships includes the potential for conflicts of many sorts. If I build a house, it is mine by right until such time as I relinquish my claim to it. Were this not so, what in principle exists to stop any random person on the street from moving in and taking over? Nothing. But the existence of rights as a correct and proper conceptual framework that guides our actions and judgments with respect to our interactions with others makes clear my claim to the house such that others may not enter upon the property at their whim and take over.

Without rights there would be violence and chaos because there would be no guideposts to tell us what is correct and what is mistaken. The only reason we need these guidelines is because of the fundamental and immutable nature of the relationships between each man and every other one.

Does this makes sense?

It involves some of the weakest formulations I have ever read.

To begin with you concede that rights are emergent and not pre-existing.

On the other hand, violence and chaos are pretty fundamental and well documented parts of nature, down to the quantum level, so their mutual exclusivity from the existence of rights seems to make the idea of rights a pretty dead end.

The housing example is a pretty poor straw-man. Apart from rights being observed to be the least effective thing for defending ones property, it doesn't being to resolve the mess that is rights hierarchy. If someone has a 'right' to their person, you cannot assert your 'right' to your property without somehow infringing their rights to their person. In most systems this is resolved by allowing a persons rights to their body to be pretty alienable.

And if the fundamental right to your person isn't fundamental then what is the point?
 
To begin with you concede that rights are emergent and not pre-existing.

On the other hand, violence and chaos are pretty fundamental and well documented parts of nature, down to the quantum level, so their mutual exclusivity from the existence of rights seems to make the idea of rights a pretty dead end.

Contracts don't exist on the quantum level, what follows?
 
I've been reading some stuff and am not real sure where the line is drawn between a natural rights individualist and an egoist.


Do you deserve natural rights even if you aren't willing to maintain them? Even if someone invades your house and you haven't bought a gun, locked your doors, or done anything to maintain the security of your home, I think to a point you deserved what you got. You alone are responsible for your own security and you're wrong to depend on the morals of others to keep them from robbing your house, or depend on police officers to defend your home for you. If you aren't concerned with defending yourself why should anyone else be? Even tho a lot of people believe a man has a natural right to land, maybe you don't deserve it if you can't protect it.

Anyone have any opinions on this?

Natural rights differ from civil rights in that the former reduces literally on the physical level. In contrast, the latter depends on legal manipulation. Even if it appears the disadvantaged people don't own the land, by natural right they still own it.
 
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Egoist anarchists are worse than communists. Communists at least try to justify theft and enslavement as a benefit for everyone. It's not true, but they're stupid and don't know any better. Egoist anarchists use philosophical bullshit to justify theft, enslavement, rape, murder, or whatever else the evil fuckers want to get away with for nothing but their own pleasure.

You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion. I will, however, point out that your little tirade is nothing better than that. You make assertions with no reasoned foundation. It's nothing different in principle than asserting that all black people are stupid, all Jews are trying to take over the world, and so on.

You have asserted an opinion on a topic. How about you now back that opinion up with some passably solid reason?

We await your response, though I for will not hold my breath. Surprise me.
 
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