Democracy or Republic

Naraku

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It seems this is a constant issue and people here get offended by calling the U.S. a democracy insisting it is instead a republic.

I for one think the U.S. is both because at its roots democracy means rule by the people. Democracy is most commonly understood to mean a system where the people choose representatives for them in the government.

A republic is most simply a system where the people have some representation in government. In this sense, the U.S. is both a republic and democracy.
 
It seems this is a constant issue and people here get offended by calling the U.S. a democracy insisting it is instead a republic.

I for one think the U.S. is both because at its roots democracy means rule by the people. Democracy is most commonly understood to mean a system where the people choose representatives for them in the government.A republic is most simply a system where the people have some representation in government. In this sense, the U.S. is both a republic and democracy.

well then the people understand wrong then dont they.
 
The problem is that democracy is not freedom. Democracy is simply majoritarianism, which is inherently incompatible with real freedom. Our founding fathers clearly understood this, as evidenced not only by our republican constitutional system, but also by their writings in the Federalist Papers and elsewhere. James Madison cautioned that under a democratic government, “There is nothing to check the inducement to sacrifice the weaker party or the obnoxious individual.” John Adams argued that democracies merely grant revocable rights to citizens depending on the whims of the masses, while a republic exists to secure and protect pre-existing rights. Yet how many Americans know that the word “democracy” is found neither in the Constitution nor the Declaration of Independence, our very founding documents?


by Ron Paul, Dr. February 7, 2005

“…man is not free unless government is limited. There's a clear cause and effect here that is as neat and predictable as a law of physics: As government expands, liberty contracts.”
Ronald Reagan


We’ve all heard the words democracy and freedom used countless times, especially in the context of our invasion of Iraq. They are used interchangeably in modern political discourse, yet their true meanings are very different.

George Orwell wrote about “meaningless words” that are endlessly repeated in the political arena*. Words like “freedom,” “democracy,” and “justice,” Orwell explained, have been abused so long that their original meanings have been eviscerated. In Orwell’s view, political words were “Often used in a consciously dishonest way.” Without precise meanings behind words, politicians and elites can obscure reality and condition people to reflexively associate certain words with positive or negative perceptions. In other words, unpleasant facts can be hidden behind purposely meaningless language. As a result, Americans have been conditioned to accept the word “democracy” as a synonym for freedom, and thus to believe that democracy is unquestionably good.

The problem is that democracy is not freedom. Democracy is simply majoritarianism, which is inherently incompatible with real freedom. Our founding fathers clearly understood this, as evidenced not only by our republican constitutional system, but also by their writings in the Federalist Papers and elsewhere. James Madison cautioned that under a democratic government, “There is nothing to check the inducement to sacrifice the weaker party or the obnoxious individual.” John Adams argued that democracies merely grant revocable rights to citizens depending on the whims of the masses, while a republic exists to secure and protect pre-existing rights. Yet how many Americans know that the word “democracy” is found neither in the Constitution nor the Declaration of Independence, our very founding documents?

A truly democratic election in Iraq, without U.S. interference and U.S. puppet candidates, almost certainly would result in the creation of a Shiite theocracy. Shiite majority rule in Iraq might well mean the complete political, economic, and social subjugation of the minority Kurd and Sunni Arab populations. Such an outcome would be democratic, but would it be free? Would the Kurds and Sunnis consider themselves free? The administration talks about democracy in Iraq, but is it prepared to accept a democratically-elected Iraqi government no matter what its attitude toward the U.S. occupation? Hardly. For all our talk about freedom and democracy, the truth is we have no idea whether Iraqis will be free in the future. They’re certainly not free while a foreign army occupies their country. The real test is not whether Iraq adopts a democratic, pro-western government, but rather whether ordinary Iraqis can lead their personal, religious, social, and business lives without interference from government.

Simply put, freedom is the absence of government coercion. Our Founding Fathers understood this, and created the least coercive government in the history of the world. The Constitution established a very limited, decentralized government to provide national defense and little else. States, not the federal government, were charged with protecting individuals against criminal force and fraud. For the first time, a government was created solely to protect the rights, liberties, and property of its citizens. Any government coercion beyond that necessary to secure those rights was forbidden, both through the Bill of Rights and the doctrine of strictly enumerated powers. This reflected the founders’ belief that democratic government could be as tyrannical as any King.

Few Americans understand that all government action is inherently coercive. If nothing else, government action requires taxes. If taxes were freely paid, they wouldn’t be called taxes, they’d be called donations. If we intend to use the word freedom in an honest way, we should have the simple integrity to give it real meaning: Freedom is living without government coercion. So when a politician talks about freedom for this group or that, ask yourself whether he is advocating more government action or less.

The political left equates freedom with liberation from material wants, always via a large and benevolent government that exists to create equality on earth. To modern liberals, men are free only when the laws of economics and scarcity are suspended, the landlord is rebuffed, the doctor presents no bill, and groceries are given away. But philosopher Ayn Rand (and many others before her) demolished this argument by explaining how such “freedom” for some is possible only when government takes freedoms away from others. In other words, government claims on the lives and property of those who are expected to provide housing, medical care, food, etc. for others are coercive-- and thus incompatible with freedom. “Liberalism,” which once stood for civil, political, and economic liberties, has become a synonym for omnipotent coercive government.

The political right equates freedom with national greatness brought about through military strength. Like the left, modern conservatives favor an all-powerful central state-- but for militarism, corporatism, and faith-based welfarism. Unlike the Taft-Goldwater conservatives of yesteryear, today’s Republicans are eager to expand government spending, increase the federal police apparatus, and intervene militarily around the world. The last tenuous links between conservatives and support for smaller government have been severed. “Conservatism,” which once meant respect for tradition and distrust of active government, has transformed into big-government utopian grandiosity.

Orwell certainly was right about the use of meaningless words in politics. If we hope to remain free, we must cut through the fog and attach concrete meanings to the words politicians use to deceive us. We must reassert that America is a republic, not a democracy, and remind ourselves that the Constitution places limits on government that no majority can overrule. We must resist any use of the word “freedom” to describe state action. We must reject the current meaningless designations of “liberals” and “conservatives,” in favor of an accurate term for both: statists.

Every politician on earth claims to support freedom. The problem is so few of them understand the simple meaning of the word.

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/161/what-does-freedom-really-mean/
 
America is at its roots a Republic, which means the power lies in the LAWS, not in the majority. Our rights are derived from the human form, they were not "created" when the Bill of Rights was written and they can never be taken away, only violated. For example, I can take away your life but not your right to life.
 
Democracy at the local and state level but the Federal is ALL about being a Republic that upholds and protects its citizens natural Rights among those being Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness (Property)

A good example of the Fed doing its true job was the Civil rights movement of the sixties.
When the Fed came in to abolish unjust laws at the local and state level.
 
We are a Constitutional Republic (a representative system of government bound by a written form of law) that utilizes the democratic process to select some of its leadership.
 
America is a representative democracy, but is better described as a democratic (and constitutional, and federal) republic. What people are railing against when they rail against democracy is really direct democracy and/or simple majority rule.
 
Ernest

Don't quote Ron Paul like he's a damn messiah whose words are perfect wisdom. He's not.

He's wrong, a lot. He's the best of all the candidates out there, but he's still wrong about quite a few issues. This is one of those issues.

Democracy does not mean rule by majority. It means rule by the people. In Greece, where the term was coined, it was actually direct rule by the people and it had nothing to do with the majority. In fact, the Greek city-states were ruled by a minority, only white male citizens of a certain age. So any claim democracy is rule by the majority is ignorance of its history.

Treating a republic like it's a freer system is also ignorant of the past. At no point did having a republic imply or in any way mean freedom or rule by the people. The Roman Republic, for instance, had no real guarantees of rights for its citizens. Citizens could be deprived of their citizenship and some citizens didn't even really have rights or had less rights.

So in historical context you can not argue that democracy is rule by majority or republic is a free system.

Democracy only implies some form of rule by the people. Republic only implies involvement of the people in some manner in the process and maybe some form of representation.
 
It's a republic which is a vague term under which even democracy falls under. In fact the constitution never mentions the word democracy. Founding fathers never intended everyone to get the right to vote. They were mainly or at least partially brought to term for economic interest.

There is a story, often told, that upon exiting the Constitutional Convention Benjamin Franklin was approached by a group of citizens asking what sort of government the delegates had created. His answer was: "A republic, if you can keep it."
 
Democracy does also mean majority rule.

No, that's how some people have misused the term. It doesn't mean or imply majority-rule in any aspect of its application.

In its modern Western usage it would generally be regarded as a system under an inviolable constitution protecting the rights of its citizenry, with representatives chosen by the people to enact laws under that constitution, and all possible transparency to the public eye.
 
Funny, you mention the Greek history of it, now you want to use a different definition of it?

From the Oxford Dictionary of Politics

Greek, ‘rule by the people’. Since the people are rarely unanimous, democracy as a descriptive term is synonymous with majority rule. In ancient Greece, and when the word was revived in the eighteenth century, most writers were opposed to what they called democracy. In modern times, the connotations of the word are so overwhelmingly favourable that regimes with no claim to it at all appropriated it (the German Democratic Republic, Democratic Kampuchea). Even when not used emptily as propaganda, ‘democracy’ and ‘democratic’ are frequently applied in ways which have no direct connection with majority rule: for instance, The Democratic Intellect (G. E. Davie) is a well-known discussion of the (supposed) egalitarianism of the Scottish educational system in the nineteenth century.

Democracy in the sense of government by the majority vote of all male citizens is first known in ancient Greece, and this ideal was most nearly achieved at Athens in the fifth century BC, established in essentials by Cleisthenes (2).
 
angrydragon

Funny, you mention the Greek history of it, now you want to use a different definition of it?

I'm just pointing out how it is generally used in modern terms. Rule by the people is quite vague and people have different standards. Truthfully most countries, including Fascist states, could accurately claim to be democracies and/or republics if taken purely in its literal sense.

I suppose the issue would be level of democracy, as in, the extent the people rule. Since a majority is not representative of the whole of the people it would actually be completely fallacious to claim majority rule is the meaning of democracy.

Generally I don't think it makes sense to say this country is not a democracy. Republic is a much looser and open term than democracy.
 
Truthfully most countries, including Fascist states, could accurately claim to be democracies and/or republics if taken purely in its literal sense.
Well, that doesn't make much sense to me at all. First off, when trying to define something...Shouldn't that be taken in it's literal sense? It's the very definition.

Second, perversion of the literal definition does not make it truth. Fascist states are by definition not democratic because they consider the individual subordinate to the party or authoritarian interests.

“A lady asked Dr. Franklin; Well Doctor, what have we got a republic or a monarchy?
A republic, replied the Doctor, if you can keep it.”
 
Black’s Law Dictionary definitions--

Democracy: That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy.

Republic: A commonwealth; that form of government in which the administration of affairs is open to all the citizens. In another sense, it signifies the state, independently of its form of government.

Constitutional: Consistent with the constitution; authorized by the constitution; not conflicting with any provision of the constitution or fundamental law of the state. Dependent upon a constitution, or secured or regulated by a constitution; as “constitutional monarch,” “constitutional rights.”

I don’t think Black’s Law defines the phrase ‘it’s supposed to be’ so I’m going to base my comments on what I believe the phrase means in relationship to the way our political system is ‘supposed to be’ organized.

If you call our political system a ‘democracy’ you wouldn’t be exactly correct because the term ignores the Constitution. Our governments are organized by constitutions that grant them sufficient but limited powers. They are not political organizations functioning without limits and ability to legislate anything that can be supported by a majority of its members. While a democracy would imply election of representatives, it still fails to organize the institution.

If you called it a ‘Republic’ you wouldn’t be correct because you also ignore the Constitution. It allows participation of all the citizens but does not signify how that can happen, nor does it mention how it is organized except for an implied need of majority rule.

If you called it a ‘Democratic Republic’ you still ignore the Constitution. However, a democratic republic is possible but there is no form, no recognition of powers available to it, or sensible limitations except for the need of majority rule.

So, I suppose, it leaves the last option standing. That is, it may be a Democratic Constitutional Republic because it incorporates all three terms. But then, one must ask if any one of the three terms could be left out in a conversation or upon documentation. If you asked me, I’d say that you could do without one or the other of the terms; Democratic and Republic but not both. That leaves Constitutional Democracy or Constitutional Republic. But are both sufficient to be the last two phrases standing?

Ben Franklyn said it was a Republic. However, debates and articles from the people who ratified the Constitution noted that simple democracies and republics were not ideal forms of governments. Others mentioned that constitutions were no different than contracts and should be treated as such. That means, concerning the question asked here, we should defer to the people who ratified it thus forming our present government. They thought, indeed it was a republic but not just a run of the mill, dusted off American version. It was a unique document that would be a unique government in a unique part of the world. It was a nation with a central government that would be ruled by its Constitution rather than by fluctuating and wavering opinion.

And, that’s why I believe that the last phrase standing says it’s a Constitutional Republic, but making available the democratic method of voting within the general population to select representatives, and in the halls of government to approve laws and operations that are authorized and consistent with its Constitution.

Tugboat
 
Ernest

Don't quote Ron Paul like he's a damn messiah whose words are perfect wisdom. He's not.

Why not? He makes a great argument. A little hostile are we? I never said anything about messiah, you did. Seems you have a problem? His definition is strong and he backs it up with why. Makes sense to me but then I have no ax to grind.

He's wrong, a lot.

Then why are you here? If he is wrong a lot then you are a single issue guy? Voting for the lesser of evils? Our are you just some disgruntled Libertarian?
 
FenceWalker

Fascist states are by definition not democratic because they consider the individual subordinate to the party or authoritarian interests.

Not all, but some and that's only because there is some form of rule by the people.

Ernest

Why not? He makes a great argument. A little hostile are we? I never said anything about messiah, you did. Seems you have a problem? His definition is strong and he backs it up with why. Makes sense to me but then I have no ax to grind.

It's ridiculous, his definition is completely wrong and it seems you're citing him just because he's Ron Paul.

Then why are you here? If he is wrong a lot then you are a single issue guy? Voting for the lesser of evils? Our are you just some disgruntled Libertarian?

I'm saying he's wrong a lot, because he is. He's wrong on some aspects of policy, but I mean he says a lot of things that are just factually inaccurate. His comments on the Civil War would be one of those other things he's wrong about.

Citing him as a source for information is just ridiculous. He's not an authoritative source on the meaning of words or their role in modern politics.
 
*Naraku pops a chill-pill*
*forum looses -9 anger points.*
*You crit forum for 1976 damage*
*forum returns to peaceful state*
 
Democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep sitting down to discuss what is for dinner.

Democracy is "Mobocracy" - mob rule. Pure and simple.

Democracy is Socialism Lite. All the flavor with half the liberty.

A democracy is almost guaranteed to eventually fail, as "the people" realize they can "vote" themselves largess from the public coffers.

"Despite what we are all taught in our government controlled schools, democracy is not liberty. Democracy is majority rule, and majority rule is mob rule. Liberty is protection of the individual's rights to his life, freedom and property." — Richard Maybury, U.S. & WORLD EARLY WARNING REPORT, November-December, 1997.

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." — H.L. Mencken, 1920.

"There is no possibility of making serious progress against poverty, war, theft, drug addiction, taxes, inflation; you name it, until we start basing law on ethics and logic instead of majority rule, which is mob rule. Mobocracy."
— Richard Maybury, U.S. & WORLD EARLY WARNING REPORT, October 2004.

“It had been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience had proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity.”
Alexander Hamilton June 21, 1788
 
We originally had a representational republic. Not all of the citizenry were intended to be able to vote, hence the requirements set forth to vote. Some of these requirements were a person had to own property, had to be able to pay a poll tax, had to be 21 years of age and had to be able to pass a test on the constitution. These requirements were done away with by the liberals in our society because they "disenfranchsed the less fortunate". Can anyone state the reasons for these requirements? I'll give you a smiley if you can!
 
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