Can a Christian support torture?

[Christian Liberty]

Note: This thread is primarily for those who consider themselves to be Christians. Those who don't believe in Christianity in any form (in other words, they do not consider themselves to be Christians) are welcome to comment, but will likely not understand the dilemma as to them "Christian" may not have an absolute meaning.

I have several friends who have responded to the whole CIA torture bit, not by denying that torture occurred, but by saying "torture is justified if it saves American lives."

I spent some time last night reading about torture... so I'm more sensetive to its horror than usual, but...

Is it even possible for a saved person to say torture is OK?

Poll coming:

 

[helmuth_hubener]

Christian

Christianity

Is it even possible for a saved person

I think that these are technical terms of art which for you have some very special, technical definitions. These definitions are hard for the rest of us to understand and they exclude most of us. Including, most emphatically, myself.

But I would say that I do not support institutional torture. And I do not believe that a true follower of Jesus could support institutional torture. A correct understanding of the teachings would preclude that, in my opinion. But, others have other interpretations and disagree with mine.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I think that these are technical terms of art which for you have some very special, technical definitions. These definitions are hard for the rest of us to understand and they exclude most of us. Including, most emphatically, myself.

But I would say that I do not support institutional torture. And I do not believe that a true follower of Jesus could support institutional torture. A correct understanding of the teachings would preclude that, in my opinion. But, others have other interpretations and disagree with mine.

Valid point. I'd appreciate any language that would make this conversation easier to understand. Let me put it this way. From a Biblical perspective, would we say that someone who says "torture is morally OK" is still going to heaven? Mind you, when I ask that question, I am not assuming that "believing torture is wrong" is some kind of work someone has to perform to be saved. Rather, I am asking if someone who has been saved by Christ could possibly think torture is OK.

 

[William Tell]

Note: This thread is primarily for those who consider themselves to be Christians. Those who don't believe in Christianity in any form (in other words, they do not consider themselves to be Christians) are welcome to comment, but will likely not understand the dilemma as to them "Christian" may not have an absolute meaning.

I have several friends who have responded to the whole CIA torture bit, not by denying that torture occurred, but by saying "torture is justified if it saves American lives."

I spent some time last night reading about torture... so I'm more sensetive to its horror than usual, but...

Is it even possible for a saved person to say torture is OK?

Poll coming:

I really hate polls like this. Do I think torture is Christian? NO! it is barbaric, and cowardly in my opinion. It is also treasonous and unpatriotic as it violates the Constitution. But... I think it is less bad for a person to voice support for immoral things than it is to do immoral things.

So, FF, do you think that a Christian can ever sin? I mean, the Bible says if we love him we will keep his commandments, do you take that to mean that any sin means we are not Christian? Obviously we are not supposed to, and sin is not something that is acceptable in Christianity. But I don't turn around and say someone is not a Christian at all because he did some particular sin. Now, when an entire life is centered around things that seem the opposite of Christianity... I think the actions of someone like George Bush or Barack Obama tell us who's will they do.

 

[William Tell]

And I really am ticked off today, seeing all these "conservatives" on Twitter who say they love the 2nd amendment. Posting stuff in support of actions which are forbidden in the 8th amendment.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I really hate polls like this. Do I think torture is Christian? NO! it is barbaric, and cowardly in my opinion. It is also treasonous and unpatriotic as it violates the Constitution. But... I think it is less bad for a person to voice support for immoral things than it is to do immoral things.

So, FF, do you think that a Christian can ever sin? I mean, the Bible says if we love him we will keep his commandments, do you take that to mean that any sin means we are not Christian? Obviously we are not supposed to, and sin is not something that is acceptable in Christianity. But I don't turn around and say someone is not a Christian at all because he did some particular sin. Now, when an entire life is centered around things that seem the opposite of Christianity... I think the actions of someone like George Bush or Barack Obama tell us who's will they do.

Oh, Christians can sin, and yes, that can include giving in to the pressure and torturing someone in a life or death situation. Heck, David committed murder for literally no good reason, yet he repented, and he was saved.

But... I don't know... torture just strikes me as the most obviously immoral thing anyone can support... Its like justifying a lifetime of adultery, only worse.

 

[Christian Liberty]

And I really am ticked off today, seeing all these "conservatives" on Twitter who say they love the 2nd amendment. Posting stuff in support of actions which are forbidden in the 8th amendment.

Same here. BTW: I didn't actually answer my own question. I am not convinced "yes" is the wrong answer. But I do think its a question that needs to be thought through more. 1 Corinthians 5 says that those who "call themselves a believer" and yet engage in various immoral acts should be shunned... where's the line?

 

[William Tell]

Oh, Christians can sin, and yes, that can include giving in to the pressure and torturing someone in a life or death situation. Heck, David committed murder for literally no good reason, yet he repented, and he was saved.

But... I don't know... torture just strikes me as the most obviously immoral thing anyone can support... Its like justifying a lifetime of adultery, only worse.

So, is it worse to "support" torture through a post on Twitter, or actually commit adultery? Or any 'lesser' sin for that matter.
And like I said, I hate torture too.

 

[Ronin Truth]

WWJD?

"By their fruits, ye shall know them."​

 

[Christian Liberty]

So, is it worse to "support" torture through a post on Twitter, or actually commit adultery?

Good point. Counterpoint: Is it worse to spend an ENTIRE LIFETIME supporting torture and never repent, vs committing adultery one time and then repenting.

BTW: I know the difficulties with categorizing sins. And, I'm still trying to learn here to. I post this thread in search of answers, not to preach them.

Or any 'lesser' sin for that matter.

Every sin, on principle, separates us from God. But we're supposed to deal with different sins in different ways.

1 Corinthians 5 gives us a list of sins which a person who does not repent from should excommunicate from the church. Do we not follow this command because "we all sin"? While I believe every sin is enough to separate us from God, I do believe there are certain sins that a believer will not be characterized by.

And like I said, I hate torture too.

I know. I'm glad.

 

[otherone]

WWJD?

"By their fruits, ye shall know them."​

 

[William Tell]

Good point. Counterpoint: Is it worse to spend an ENTIRE LIFETIME supporting torture and never repent, vs committing adultery one time and then repenting.

I think without question committing adultery is worse than voicing support for torture in a way that does not effect policy. We are not talking about actually torturing here.

Adultery is listed in the 10 commandments, and if you commit it and repent, you will still have ruined the marriage of 2 other people. The fact that you repent and God forgives you, does not undo the harm you have caused.

Supporting torture when you have no effect on policy is not that important in my opinion. Its not like we are talking about Dick Cheney here, we are talking about nobodies. Now, if they vote for Dick Cheney, that is obviously not a good thing. But torture is not something most of us come into contact with personally.

I certainly think its good to oppose torture, and talk about such important issues with believers. I just would not call someone a non Christian just because he has an opinion on an issue that he will never have an effect on.

 

[VIDEODROME]

Maybe in the Afterlife

 

[Christian Liberty]

I think without question committing adultery is worse than voicing support for torture in a way that does not effect policy. We are not talking about actually torturing here.

Adultery is listed in the 10 commandments, and if you commit it and repent, you will still have ruined the marriage of 2 other people. The fact that you repent and God forgives you, does not undo the harm you have caused.

Supporting torture when you have no effect on policy is not that important in my opinion. Its not like we are talking about Dick Cheney here, we are talking about nobodies. Now, if they vote for Dick Cheney, that is obviously not a good thing. But torture is not something most of us come into contact with personally.

I certainly think its good to oppose torture, and talk about such important issues with believers. I just would not call someone a non Christian just because he has an opinion on an issue that he will never have an effect on.

What if somebody said adultery was OK but didn't do it?

 

[staerker]

Let me know when y'all have quantified every sin in a spreadsheet, and ordered them with respect to repulsiveness.

 

[William Tell]

What if somebody said adultery was OK but didn't do it?

Then he would be wrong, but would not have committed adultery.

 

[William Tell]

Let me know when y'all have quantified every sin in a spreadsheet, and ordered them with respect to repulsiveness.

That's funny.

 

[William Tell]

Then he would be wrong, but would not have committed adultery.

Its a bad example anyway, since the Bible is so clear on adultery.

 

[Crashland]

The question is not whether a true Christian can support torture -- the question is whether a true Christian can decide to choose between two evils (the lesser). I voted Yes, but being here on RPF I would imagine the response would be disproportionately "no", at least disproportionally compared to the general population. Many libertarians don't like choosing between two evils

 

[HVACTech]

That's funny.

mebbe we need a poll to measure support for torture on RPF's?
I have not seen any.
unless of course, voting is an act of torture.