Any other software guys out there?

[osan]

I had and idea, so best you start running now.

As "government" goes ever wilder in its stridency, 87K new IRS agents coming immediately to mind, I have wondered whether the time has come for we the people to get serious about defending ourselves against Theire ever more violent intrusions.

Theire agents do no-knocks, often on the wrong locations, shoot the dog, beat or even murder other family members, destroy the house, toss flash-bangs into cradles where infants sleep, and so on down the miserable list we all know too well.

The idea that twigged this afternoon was <DRUMROLL>... An app. Surprising, right? Specifically, a phone/pad/computer app that would allow people to broadcast calls to action.

Imagine the IRS bangs in your door. You fire off a call for help, not to worthless police who would do nothing better than help their compatriots, but to a circle who would presumably show up to your location, perhaps well armed, and ready to render aid. The idea here is that if police, etc. had to worry about significant numbers of armed friends, family, and neighbors of those whom you are violating showing up, they might come to a new view on such matters, such as making damned certain of the addresses they intend on serving no-knock warrants.

So long as we stand idly for the sorts of outrageous violations that have become now commonplace, Theye will continue to wratchet up their campaigns of terror and oppression against us. It is long overdue that we begin reeling these cretinous instruments of tyranny to heel.

Thoughts?

 

[dannno]

Good luck getting the Apple Appstore to approve it. You would have to make the app for something else and some how people would have to figure out that is what it's for.

Currently, you can create a large text message group with your neighbors and people would just have to text the group if something goes down. Just make sure to let everybody know it's not a discussion thread, it's for emergencies only, otherwise people won't pay attention to it.

 

[luctor-et-emergo]

First of all, I appreciate your obvious disgust of things that are not right. I am there with you fully.

But I do not think in any local universe this is going to be a viable thing. Legally there are a few issues with it, as you're sort of making an app to summon a mob. You might not describe it that way but government lawyers for sure would. Then secondly, you're calling to action, then at some point, because you have a platform, you attain some legal responsibility of what happens after, which after x events will for sure trigger some negative effect. The negative effect likely includes loud noises, unwanted releases of vital bodily fluids, parts and thereafter a legal case leading to bankruptcy. (edit; and I forgot the) And worse.

P.S. I do not think these negative effects are insurable at any payable rate.

 

[ClaytonB]

I had and idea, so best you start running now.

As "government" goes ever wilder in its stridency, 87K new IRS agents coming immediately to mind, I have wondered whether the time has come for we the people to get serious about defending ourselves against Theire ever more violent intrusions.

Theire agents do no-knocks, often on the wrong locations, shoot the dog, beat or even murder other family members, destroy the house, toss flash-bangs into cradles where infants sleep, and so on down the miserable list we all know too well.

The idea that twigged this afternoon was <DRUMROLL>... An app. Surprising, right? Specifically, a phone/pad/computer app that would allow people to broadcast calls to action.

Imagine the IRS bangs in your door. You fire off a call for help, not to worthless police who would do nothing better than help their compatriots, but to a circle who would presumably show up to your location, perhaps well armed, and ready to render aid. The idea here is that if police, etc. had to worry about significant numbers of armed friends, family, and neighbors of those whom you are violating showing up, they might come to a new view on such matters, such as making damned certain of the addresses they intend on serving no-knock warrants.

So long as we stand idly for the sorts of outrageous violations that have become now commonplace, Theye will continue to wratchet up their campaigns of terror and oppression against us. It is long overdue that we begin reeling these cretinous instruments of tyranny to heel.

Thoughts?

luctor hit some of the issues.

From the technical standpoint, the problem with cellphones is that they are enemy-made devices communicating over the enemy's network. How are you going to use these inherently compromised spy-devices to accomplish any good end? The answer is, you can't, at least, not without going to extreme lengths that only a few of us have the skills for. And even then, you ultimately have to cut the umbilical cord to the cell-tower because that is where the "rootkit" is located (it's in the telco's service layer in the SIM card, so you can't escape it so long as the service payment for the device can be traced back to you.)

From a social standpoint, this is basically what the permanent Establishment is.... they are an interlocking network of gangs who have reached a kind of smoldering detente that only flares up occasionally in various locations. The old adage applies -- you can't fight fire with fire.

From a spiritual standpoint, this is ultimately what the church is for. The church model is to surround and embrace, rather than surround and attack. The history of the church is full of stories of martyrdom and persecution that began with one member being singled-out, then an entire congregation surrounding them, then being mass-arrested and dragged to the gallows or pyre or whatever. That the church is built on the model of "victory through dying" shows that Jesus is, truly, the Prince of Peace. He did not establish a kingdom of thugs who surround you and kick the snot out of you because you made the mistake of trying to arrest one of them. No, we are a kingdom of peace and we stand or fall together. In the long-run, this is the only solution which will prevail, all others will be stamped out.

---

 

[Dr.3D]

I have a hunch the Obama phones have something like that preinstalled and been used to coordinate Antifa.

 

[CaptUSA]

Not a software guy, but I say try it out and see if it works. We need options.

Besides, it's better than poking holes in every potential idea that could lead us closer to liberty. Try. Them. All.

If you have an idea and the technical knowhow - pursue it!

 

[acptulsa]

dannno's right. You don't need tricky features or nationwide coordination, just an address. So, avoid the development, the downloads triggering red flags, the liability, the odds of people you don't know and can't trust getting on the network, all of it. Just band together a neighborhood (citywide, greater metropolitan whatever) watch and keep it simple.

The Minuteman group is the great idea, and it certainly is a great idea. The app isn't really even necessary. The colonists did it with a silversmith on a horse.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I have a hunch the Obama phones have something like that preinstalled and been used to coordinate Antifa.

Antifa and friends have used existing technology and apps to coordinate for years. That being said, the “authorities” had no more desire to stop them than they had to stop the Jan 6 protesters.

 

[osan]

Good luck getting the Apple Appstore to approve it.

Don't care much. It would be nice, but that was a first thought. Apple wont sell P2P platforms like eDonkey, either. They nonetheless survive, if in comparative marginality.

You would have to make the app for something else and some how people would have to figure out that is what it's for.

Make if for anything. Hell, it could be written in Python, source included (obviously) and let the community manage it much the way it is done with programs such as FreeCAD.

Currently, you can create a large text message group with your neighbors and people would just have to text the group if something goes down.

Yes, but I'm thinking that this is more than just that. Granted, my notion is rather vague at this stage, but I'm thinking that there may be more to it than just a text deal. Possible transmission of live audio/video of what is happening... nothing overly complicated since the intended use would come in a context where speed is of paramount concern. One cannot be fumbling with the thing, trying to figure out which feature to use.

Just make sure to let everybody know it's not a discussion thread, it's for emergencies only, otherwise people won't pay attention to it.

Valid point, but I'm thinking that this becomes a self-correcting deal, particularly for those crying wolf or otherwise misusing the tool.

Also, and I should have mentioned this upfront, I'm not thinking along for-profit lines. My thought is that it's free, the source is included, GNU licensing, etc. and so forth.

The main problem I see in terms of pure function is that cops, being the vermin tyrants they tend, might start using cell jamming setups just prior to kicking in your door to shoot the dog and grenade your toddler. Having versions for hard-wired home networks would also be available, ideally. Getting a warrant to force the telecom to cut your network connection would, at the very least, cause them great heartburn and might not even be possible. Then there are those using VPNs...

 

[ClaytonB]

Don't care much. It would be nice, but that was a first thought. Apple wont sell P2P platforms like eDonkey, either. They nonetheless survive, if in comparative marginality.

Make if for anything. Hell, it could be written in Python, source included (obviously) and let the community manage it much the way it is done with programs such as FreeCAD.

You misunderstand how the phone apps ecosystem works. The phone you receive when you purchase a phone is "non-root" which means that the manufacturer has locked the Android or iOS operating-system down so that it cannot be modified. The installed OS will not allow the user to get "root privilege", only the OS itself (and Apple/Google and the telco) have that ability. So you literally do not control your phone at all. Your phone is the equivalent of a self-driving Tesla and the steering wheel is just there to make you feel like you're "driving" it. The only way to install apps is through the Apple/Google stores, and this is by design -- they want to keep all non-authorized apps from running on their platforms at all (supposedly to prevent malware, but the real reason is control, obviously). You can root your phone, but doing so will make it unable to operate as a cellular device, because the cellular infrastructure will not allow a rooted phone to connect. So, since the control is imposed at the physical (RF) layer, there is really no way around it. If you have a paid subscription phone line, then you have to have a non-rooted phone which will only allow you to install apps through the Apple/Google store. And if you root your phone (so you can install any software on it you want), then it will be unable to connect to the cell tower.

You can "de-Google" an Android phone, but it's a massive technological feat, and you need a lot of skill to do it right. Here's a video walking through the steps involved:

Yes, but I'm thinking that this is more than just that. Granted, my notion is rather vague at this stage, but I'm thinking that there may be more to it than just a text deal. Possible transmission of live audio/video of what is happening... nothing overly complicated since the intended use would come in a context where speed is of paramount concern. One cannot be fumbling with the thing, trying to figure out which feature to use.

I could mince words or I could give it to you straight: what you are describing is an FBI wet-dream.

The main problem I see in terms of pure function is that cops, being the vermin tyrants they tend, might start using cell jamming setups just prior to kicking in your door to shoot the dog and grenade your toddler. Having versions for hard-wired home networks would also be available, ideally. Getting a warrant to force the telecom to cut your network connection would, at the very least, cause them great heartburn and might not even be possible. Then there are those using VPNs...

No, the real problem is that the cops would be wired into your network and use it to gain even more access to your private information than they already have (which is pretty much 100%). You're voluntarily switching on your mic/camera with this app, which is something that they can do, but they have to be careful about it, legally. Since you're installing this app whose purpose is to switch it on voluntarily, they don't have to tip-toe around the legal complexities anymore, they've got full-time 100% access.

 

[ClaytonB]

Antifa and friends have used existing technology and apps to coordinate for years. That being said, the “authorities” had no more desire to stop them than they had to stop the Jan 6 protesters.

Antifa works for the same Establishment who built and operates the cellular infrastructure, so they have 100% cover/protection. It's amazing how you can just breeze through locked doors when you have the keys...

 

[osan]

First of all, I appreciate your obvious disgust of things that are not right. I am there with you fully.

But I do not think in any local universe this is going to be a viable thing. Legally there are a few issues with it, as you're sort of making an app to summon a mob.

A couple things. Firstly, if you're being invaded or the threat is imminent, legalities may have to take a back seat to the more immediate issue of survival. If my child may be injured, I will worry about the legal ramifications long after the immediate event has passed and his safety has been secured. If that brings tough consequences for me, so be it. Is that not what parents are supposed to do?

Secondly, I would not even mention cops and other "government" entities in any promotional material. You have an emergency, call for help. Let us not forget that at least in the USA one is not obliged to rely on cops for assistance, particularly in the wake of SCOTUS rulings that police have no obligation to render such aid. So FTP, I'm calling on friends who have pledged mutual aid in the event any member of a circle finds themselves in immediate and serious danger.

Thirdly, and this is a mite redundant, if we live our lives wringing our hands in worry about legalities while people with no authority rape and ravage our existences, then we deserve nothing better than what we get. Toe Theire line if is pleases you, but I am not a fan and I defy Themme at every turn.

You might not describe it that way but government lawyers for sure would.

Of course they would. If you made ANY move to defend yourself, Theire agents would charge similarly.

But it would not be marketed as such. It would be marketed simply as a call for help system. Burglar at 2AM? Rioting outside your door and you cannot escape? Drunk causes you to swerve and hit a tree? Fuck calling the police. I don't trust them a whit. My friends are on their way. That this system happens to be good in the event Theire agents begin running amok, well, I call that icing on the cake.

Or do you mean to say that it is better to stand idle as some evil actor destroys your life? I think the time to say enough is enough is long past. Act like Freemen or shut up and stop complaining about the injustices of "government". To whinge about it, yet do nothing effective to countervail Theire evil... That makes us noting better than whiney little bitches.

Then secondly, you're calling to action, then at some point, because you have a platform, you attain some legal responsibility of what happens after, which after x events will for sure trigger some negative effect. The negative effect likely includes loud noises, unwanted releases of vital bodily fluids, parts and thereafter a legal case leading to bankruptcy. (edit; and I forgot the) And worse.

What good is any of that concern when some motherfucker lobs a flashbang grenade in your sleeping toddler's room, much less his crib? We either fight this shit seriously, or we fold like cheap suits. The time for equivocation is over. Mr. Shit, meet Mr. GetOffThePot.

I would also point out that my legal responsibility is not perforce as you assert. If I call for help and you come, you do so of your own free will because I've held no gun to you. I would also point out that the most likely outcome of such a development would be that the cops get very polite, very quickly. They tend to be cowardly, finding their purported "courage" only in numbers. I see this routinely any time a cop is challenged, however politely: they call immediately for backup. They are überphags with no balls at all. A breach team of ten cops is politely confronted with, say, ten armed citizens of composed yet firm demeanor, chances are vanishingly small that they are going to open fire.

Time is here to get those tiny lassos around those minuscule scrota and reel those bastards in by their tiny testes to a very short lead. Theye aren't going to do it - I've witnessed what has developed since the 70s with "civilian review boards" and the self-investigations ostensibly aimed at ferreting out corruption. It's all bullshit.

Advocate for the status quo if it pleases you, but I'm trying to get people to think about all this tyranny a little differently. Maybe I'm wrong and you're right, but if so, then I see no point whatsoever in even discussing the issues relevant to this site. Rather that we lay down, open our legs, and hope for the best.

P.S. I do not think these negative effects are insurable at any payable rate.

And why should one have to take insurance to exercise a right of self defense? We need to raise ourselves up to the normative ideal, rather than lower ourselves to the abominable standards of positive reality. Doing the latter only serves to perpetuate the dolorous and miserable circumstances that currently prevail. I find it all rather disgusting, and it's what we've been doing as a nation for three full generations, going on a fourth or even fifth. Look at the schools - instead of whipping the shit out of students to raise them up to the higher standard, we have consistently and nearly without exception lowered the bar. Then we complain about the result. When I get to thinking about things like this, I cannot help but think we deserve our creeping servitude and inevitable bald-faced slavery. Big Bro gave it to America right up the exhaust chute and we've done nothing of value to stop it, FTW.

 

[ClaytonB]

I have a hunch the Obama phones have something like that preinstalled and been used to coordinate Antifa.

 

[osan]

I could mince words or I could give it to you straight: what you are describing is an FBI wet-dream...

No, the real problem is that the cops would be wired into your network and use it to gain even more access to your private information than they already have (which is pretty much 100%). You're voluntarily switching on your mic/camera with this app, which is something that they can do, but they have to be careful about it, legally. Since you're installing this app whose purpose is to switch it on voluntarily, they don't have to tip-toe around the legal complexities anymore, they've got full-time 100% access.

That would be assuming no real-time encryption. Since data of that sort has a very short shelf life, taking even ten minutes to crack it would likely be too long. In reality with a large public key, it would take much longer, even with NSA backing you. Then there are other strategies that might be employed to make things even trickier, again bearing in mind shelf life.

 

[ClaytonB]

That would be assuming no real-time encryption. Since data of that sort has a very short shelf life, taking even ten minutes to crack it would likely be too long. In reality with a large public key, it would take much longer, even with NSA backing you. Then there are other strategies that might be employed to make things even trickier, again bearing in mind shelf life.

Again, I could mince words or I can give it to you straight: you have no idea what you're talking about. They don't need to "crack" anything, they simply snarf the keys from your phone. They do it for WhatsApp and every other encrypted app you've ever heard of. The phone itself is compromised at the hardware layer. It doesn't matter what your software app does, the keys are always visible to the hardware. Game Over, Please Insert $1.00 to Play Again.

 

[osan]

Again, I could mince words or I can give it to you straight: you have no idea what you're talking about. They don't need to "crack" anything, they simply snarf the keys from your phone.

Ah, keystroke readers. Well, assuming that this is the case, security does become a problem, but I would have to see a convincing argument that the hardware-level compromise cannot be defeated. It may be the case, but computer geeks are sneaky little devils and have bailed the world from seemingly tight corners before.

 

[ClaytonB]

Ah, keystroke readers.

No, not "keystroke readers", full and unrestricted backdoor access. Of course the device can send out keystrokes if that's what is desired (usually unnecessary since you're probably composing a message, accessing a website or writing to file). Edward Snowden explained this all in exhaustive detail 10 years ago. Your phone is insecure-by-design. It was built to be spied on. It is nothing but a spy device masquerading as a phone.

Well, assuming that this is the case, security does become a problem, but I would have to see a convincing argument that the hardware-level compromise cannot be defeated.

Think of it like you're in prison and there is a pad and pen in a room monitored by a security guard and CCTV recording. You can write on the pad but every single thing you write is observed. Even if you use encryption, where are you going to store the key? As soon as you write it down on the pad (to use computer encryption, the key must be present in the device), the guard can see it and it's recorded for playback. They don't need to "crack" anything, they just read your key, decrypt your message, and go on their way. Why the hell do you think they built Bluffdale?!

It may be the case, but computer geeks are sneaky little devils and have bailed the world from seemingly tight corners before.

Yes, and Step 1 is to stop using your phone for anything that is even remotely sensitive!

 

[ClaytonB]

For most modern smartphones, the only way to be completely sure you are safe from your phone is to power it off and place it in a Faraday bag:



Edit: I just noticed the thumbnail shows an anti-static bag (upper-right)... these are *not* Faraday bags and cannot be substituted for a proper Faraday bag.

 

[osan]

Your phone is insecure-by-design.

No surprise there. I don't use even my computer for anything important. I knock on someone's door and talk face to face, and only then very carefully. The phones, definitely listen to your conversations. Wife and I will talk about, say, ceiling fans; next you know, your ads are all ceiling fans. Happens all the time.

Yes, and Step 1 is to stop using your phone for anything that is even remotely sensitive!

I adopted that habit long ago. Convenience is often evil in disguise.

 

[Occam's Banana]