Abortion, rights and libertarianism. How to 'solve' this understandably divisive issue?

[Sentient Void]

"The issue of abortion is one that is constantly brought up and debated about at length within libertarian circles. It is often if not almost always approached as a black and white issue which in my view understandably creates tension and conclusions which cause their own problems. It's time to understand and consider a different approach to this altogether."

A new article I just put up over here to add to a very slowly growing list (the mood really has to strike me for me to be motivated to do one). Check it out.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/entry....w-to-solve-this-understandably-divisive-issue

PS - As a heads up, by the end of the article you'll note that I included an *optional*, personal anecdote to read. If you aren't interested in personal anecdotes, then feel free to not read it. However, it is something that was very heavy for me to write, with the hope that it can be used not just cathartically, but productively in hopefully convincing others to reconsider what their position on abortion is.

Thanks in advance. Feel free to share it on facebook and wherever else if it's something you agree with and was well done, as well as might help people consider this approach.

 

[Zippyjuan]

What about the freedom to decide for ones self? Isn't that Libertarian? Or should the government impose a decision on one side or the other?

 

[Eagles' Wings]

Sentient - Thank you for writing your personal experience with abortion. Would you consider attending a weekend retreat designed to help those who have experienced abortion - both mothers and fathers? I believe there are both religious and non-religious programs.

My hope is that you will find freedom from fear, as you described. It is hard enough to trust that our children will be safe - and with your added burden, I think it would be important to pull that fear up from the roots and start living in the present with the joys of your life.

I'm sending a big hug and saying how proud I am of you.

 

[torchbearer]

What about the freedom to decide for ones self? Isn't that Libertarian? Or should the government impose a decision on one side or the other?

the question that always settles the lines of morality in the debate is- when do the dividing cells become a human who owns its own body.
that is obviously very hard to answer as people have many views on what constitutes a human being with rights.
even a mentally retarded person who is unaware of his surroundings has rights- so you can't say self-awareness.
If you chopped off your thumb, it wouldn't have rights. so genetics alone doesn't give one rights.

 

[Sentient Void]

What about the freedom to decide for ones self? Isn't that Libertarian? Or should the government impose a decision on one side or the other?

Did you read the article? It doesn't sound like you did.

 

[Sentient Void]

Sentient - Thank you for writing your personal experience with abortion. Would you consider attending a weekend retreat designed to help those who have experienced abortion - both mothers and fathers? I believe there are both religious and non-religious programs.

My hope is that you will find freedom from fear, as you described. It is hard enough to trust that our children will be safe - and with your added burden, I think it would be important to pull that fear up from the roots and start living in the present with the joys of your life.

I'm sending a big hug and saying how proud I am of you.

Thanks, Louise. I appreciate the invite and offer and I'm sure it's great, but I should be all set.

I still have a lot of joy in my life. My daughter and my wife and my friends give me that, definitely. I will always be haunted by what happened, though. That pain will always be there.

And I will hold on to that pain because it's all that I have.

 

[Eagles' Wings]

Thanks, Louise. I appreciate the invite and offer and I'm sure it's great, but I should be all set.

I still have a lot of joy in my life. My daughter and my wife and my friends give me that, definitely. I will always be haunted by what happened, though. That pain will always be there.

And I will hold on to that pain because it's all that I have.

Very good - it is wonderful to hear a guy say his wife is a joy.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Prohibited.

Woman charged with hiring a killer, doctor charged with murder.

Next question.

 

[torchbearer]

Prohibited.

Woman charged with hiring a killer, doctor charged with murder.

Next question.

I had a mole removed from my body once.
It definitely was human.
I must have hired a murderer to kill that mass of cells by removing it from the body that was feeding it.

 

[eduardo89]

I had a mole removed from my body once.
It definitely was human.
I must have hired a murderer to kill that mass of cells by removing it from the body that was feeding it.

A mole is not a unique human being. It does not have it's own genetic code and will never live on its own.

 

[torchbearer]

A mole is not a unique human being. It does not have it's own genetic code and will never live on its own.

the fetus doesn't have its own genetic code, it has a combination of its parent's code. (which they own- and thus own 50% controlling shares each of those cells)

 

[eduardo89]

the fetus doesn't have its own genetic code, it has a combination of its parent's code. (which they own- and thus own 50% controlling shares each of those cells)

An unborn child has a unique combination of his parent's genetic code, making it his own. And no, the parents do not "own 50% controlling shares each of those cells." humans are not property.

 

[EBounding]

Thanks for writing the article, I thought it was interesting.

In my opinion when it comes to the most defenseless people in society (young children and babies), private property rights are irrelevant. If we as a society don't respect and protect the lives of the future, we don't deserve to exist.

But obviously the approach of "ban it all together" approach isn't working. Like you said, the culture has to change to reduce abortion. I still think that could be done through law however.

I say start by making it illegal to dismember/mutilate a baby, even if it happens to be 12 centimeters inside the womb. That wouldn't eliminate abortion, but it might force people to realize, "Oh wait, there is a tiny person in there". Plus there would be evidence of dismemberment like there would be if a born child was mutilated. After that, then there can be a debate on whether chemical abortions or early abortions are appropriate.

The second part is to make adoption the easier, more attractive option. The pro-life movement is responsible for bills and legislation to make adoption easier, but you don't hear about it often. They need to make adoption a central part of their campaign.

 

[torchbearer]

An unborn child has a unique combination of his parent's genetic code, making it his own. And no, the parents do not "own 50% controlling shares each of those cells." humans are not property.

funny, because i thought the parent's held the liability of the child.
if they hold the liability, the child is their property.
if their car runs through someone's house and smashes it up- they have to pay. why? because it is their property, their liability.
if it was someone else's car, they'd have no liability for it.

same goes for all humans. if you don't have the liability-you don't have the right.

 

[Sentient Void]

Prohibited.

Woman charged with hiring a killer, doctor charged with murder.

Next question.

And I'm guessing then that you're perfectly fine with these abortions taking place regardless but simply being driven into a black market, or there being widespread coat-hanger abortions, increased power to criminals, a significant rise in crime, along with any and all other symptoms that come from prohibition a la alcohol, prostitution, drug, gambling, and immigration prohibition?

Simple economics. You can only wipe out the supply, not the demand. The demand remains, you just drive it underground, make it less controlled, mroe dangerous, and empower criminals.

 

[torchbearer]

emancipation, a word used to describe when a child becomes a right carrying/liability holding member of society.
emancipated from what? someone else's ownership. you could call it a type of slavery. but one that is done out of love because a child can't take care of itself.
it is dependent upon the labor of others.

 

[osan]

What about the freedom to decide for ones self? Isn't that Libertarian? Or should the government impose a decision on one side or the other?

Oh shame on me for getting into this, but here goes.

Abortion is a non-issue for me. I do not like it, but I understand the desire to terminate certain pregnancies.

Were I female and you were trying to dictate what I can or cannot do in that regard, I would tell you to go screw yourselves and I would do as I wished. Illegalize it and women still have a very simple remedy: an iodine soaked rag inserted into the vagina will cause miscarriage. I know women who have done it and it works like a charm.

We are either free or we are not. Some of you guys need to make up you damned minds. You may not like abortion - I don't - but it is NOT my place to stick my nose up Jane's twat uninvited. She doesn't want me there and I have no authority to go there unless she asks me to.

This is a slippery slope issue and do not fool yourselves into believing it isn't. Criminalize it and then what? The next steps could include investigating every miscarriage for criminal behavior. Shall we make iodine illegal for pregnant women to possess? How about nutrition? Is mama eating correctly? Why can't we force her to eat a standard diet maximized for the fetus' health? Remember the Olympic skiier Michaela Figini? She was racing downhill and methinks slalom or FS while something like 6 or 7 months pregnant. Does this not endanger the fetus? How about we arrest all women engaging in any activity that endangers the baby? Put them in a jail cell at least until the child is born, but if she is egregious enough perhaps we just leave her there because she is so obviously unfit to be a parent.

That shit stands to get out of control.

Being free means tolerating things others do that you absolutely HATE. If you are not willing to so tolerate, then you are not a free man but a pretty slaver and there is no credible way to deny this. So, once again I admonish you to make up your mind: freedom or something else. If freedom, then you really need to STFU about criminalizing abortion and cowboy up to the tolerance that liberty demands of the free man toward his fellows. This is the "down side" of freedom: people get to do shit that make you want to kill them. Grow up, grow a pair, get over yourself, and get to the business of living AS a free man and not just talking about it out one side of your mouth while going all pretty-slaver out the other. It's not pretty, it's not gracious, it's not credible, it's not intelligent, and it's not right.

You will NEVER stop women from terminating pregnancies. All they have to do is stop eating for several days and that's that. What do you propose, force feeding them? If what they do is indeed "sin", leave it to "God" to make his judgment and keep your tongue and hands to your damned self.

Over and out.

 

[torchbearer]

Oh shame on me for getting into this, but here goes.

Abortion is a non-issue for me. I do not like it, but I understand the desire to terminate certain pregnancies.

Were I female and you were trying to dictate what I can or cannot do in that regard, I would tell you to go screw yourselves and I would do as I wished. Illegalize it and women still have a very simple remedy: an iodine soaked rag inserted into the vagina will cause miscarriage. I know women who have done it and it works like a charm.

We are either free or we are not. Some of you guys need to make up you damned minds. You may not like abortion - I don't - but it is NOT my place to stick my nose up Jane's twat uninvited. She doesn't want me there and I have no authority to go there unless she asks me to.

This is a slippery slope issue and do not fool yourselves into believing it isn't. Criminalize it and then what? The next steps could include investigating every miscarriage for criminal behavior. Shall we make iodine illegal for pregnant women to possess? How about nutrition? Is mama eating correctly? Why can't we force her to eat a standard diet maximized for the fetus' health? Remember the Olympic skiier Michaela Figini? She was racing downhill and methinks slalom or FS while something like 6 or 7 months pregnant. Does this not endanger the fetus? How about we arrest all women engaging in any activity that endangers the baby? Put them in a jail cell at least until the child is born, but if she is egregious enough perhaps we just leave her there because she is so obviously unfit to be a parent.

That shit stands to get out of control.

Being free means tolerating things others do that you absolutely HATE. If you are not willing to so tolerate, then you are not a free man but a pretty slaver and there is no credible way to deny this. So, once again I admonish you to make up your mind: freedom or something else. If freedom, then you really need to STFU about criminalizing abortion and cowboy up to the tolerance that liberty demands of the free man toward his fellows. This is the "down side" of freedom: people get to do shit that make you want to kill them. Grow up, grow a pair, get over yourself, and get to the business of living AS a free man and not just talking about it out one side of your mouth while going all pretty-slaver out the other. It's not pretty, it's not gracious, it's not credible, it's not intelligent, and it's not right.

You will NEVER stop women from terminating pregnancies. All they have to do is stop eating for several days and that's that. What do you propose, force feeding them? If what they do is indeed "sin", leave it to "God" to make his judgment and keep your tongue and hands to your damned self.

Over and out.

a woman could terminate a pregnancy by eating raw meat, castor oil, doing an extreme work-out cause extreme stress to the body, fall down stairs, etc.
you can't get rid of evil with legislation, and i don't think a woman who has had an abortion is a threat to kill her neighbors.
now, personally, i'd never be for an abortion when concerning my children. but legislating morality doesn't have the intended effect of morality.

 

[The Free Hornet]

I like it so far. The proportionality argument could also cut both ways. Fetal murder might be considered disproportionate, as might murder one charges be disproportionate as compared to gunning down someone in cold blood.

I'll note that the founding fathers obviously seemed to avoid the culture wars. Slavery was a key issue they ducked (mostly). They also didn't touch upon deviant behavior and I suspect it was not from a pro/con perspective of such but they really saw a limited government, mind your business approach as the best defender of liberty. Instead of being 'loud and proud' and expecting a government goon squad to defend your speech, people were expected to conduct themselves accordingly and presumably how they would wish to be treated.

Gotta run. May comment more later!

 

[Sentient Void]

Oh shame on me for getting into this, but here goes... [etc]

osan, my good man, did you read the article?