a little help on the issue of free trade

riner69er

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So Dr. Paul wants us to pull out of NAFTA, WTO, etc., right? He says that free trade should not be regulated by treaties or international agreements.

Ok, I get that. And I do agree.

BUT

So let's say we pull out of these organizations......Who are we going to trade with?? I mean it would be a "violation" of the agreements that they are in to trade with us, wouldn't it?? And Dr. Paul wouldn't want us trading with countries like that anyways, right? I suppose some other countries could pull out as well, but how likely is that to happen??

I was having this little debate with someone today, and couldn't really answer him. He was saying that pulling out of these organizations would devalue the American dollar 10 times more than it is right now.

He said that Britain did this in the late 19th century, and the value of their currency plummeted because they had no one to trade with.
 
Well, if we pulled out of NAFTA, it would just fall apart. Then unmanaged (free) trade would exist between Mexico, Canada, and the US again. Mexico and Canada could make their own "free"-trade agreement, I suppose, but it wouldn't include us at that point. So, trade between US and those two nations would still be unmanaged.

NAFTA just means that all three north-american countries agree not to put up tarriffs and other blocks to "free" trade against the others. It might have other implications, too, I'm not sure.

I don't see why pulling out of NAFTA would devalue the dollar. We could still trade with Mexico and Canada without NAFTA.
 
absolute free trade would be fine if we still had our manufacturing base, but we dont. we need Tariffs, to help American jobs and industry move back home, to stop the flood of cheap Chinese garbage into America-when price is king the whole system goes to pot., also to raise money for the government, if its not coming from our pockets its gotta come from somewhere, and as a bonus ITS CONSTITUTIONAL!!
there is nothing wrong with a little protectionism, for now.
 
Free trade didn't chase business/manufacturing away.

The tax code, inflation, regulation and laws forcing owners to deal with labor unions did.

Protectionism (more than a 10% tariff) steals from farmers.
 
There's nothing wrong with being a service based economy, everyone needs/ wants services. Outsourcing is good for the economy, when jobs are outsourced, yes some jobs are lost, but even more are created.

Having free trade would mean you don't need a huge manufacturing base. You let someone else produce the product then you trade for it. It's more efficient; look up comparative advantage for more details.

I know we like to joke about Chinese made products as "cheap quality," but chances are you're computer has "Made in China" somewhere in there and since you're here typing your response I'm assuming your computer still works. This doesn't mean we still can't joke about Cheap Chinese products though.

Though I don't agree with Dr. Paul pulling out of all Global Organizations.
 
So Dr. Paul wants us to pull out of NAFTA, WTO, etc., right? He says that free trade should not be regulated by treaties or international agreements.

Ok, I get that. And I do agree.

BUT

So let's say we pull out of these organizations......Who are we going to trade with?? I mean it would be a "violation" of the agreements that they are in to trade with us, wouldn't it?? And Dr. Paul wouldn't want us trading with countries like that anyways, right? I suppose some other countries could pull out as well, but how likely is that to happen??

I was having this little debate with someone today, and couldn't really answer him. He was saying that pulling out of these organizations would devalue the American dollar 10 times more than it is right now.

He said that Britain did this in the late 19th century, and the value of their currency plummeted because they had no one to trade with.

First, Ron Paul is not against free trade. He's against managed trade. These are not free trade agreements. These are managed trade agreements under the guise of free trade.

Second, one needs to understand WHY our jobs are going overseas to understand how we can prevent this from continuing to happen.

Read this and give it to your friend:

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2006/cr021506.htm
 
What is very interesting is the affect in a community that switches to Liberty Dollars. All of a sudden small businesses thrive and do way better then the big chain stores. Also, local communities are rebuilt and become much stronger. The people have a higher standard of living. It's quite amazing I've heard.
 
To Tom: The problem with being entirely service-oriented is this: Without actually manufacturing and exporting products, we develop a huge trade deficit and our economy becomes a hollow shell that other countries consider entirely expendable. Sure, they'll sell to us for as long as the dollar is worth something, but other than that, we're of no real use to them, so they can "cut us off" at any time - and since we're so dependent upon everyone else for tangible goods, that would destroy us. We need to regrow our manufacturing base so we can be at least somewhat self-sufficient (and carry our weight in the world economy).

To riner69er: Hopefully the above paragraph helps to shed some light on "Who are we going to trade with?" Answer: NOBODY, until we have something to offer that will give others an incentive to drop out of those "free trade" (managed trade) agreements as well. Once we have something tangible to offer, other countries will follow our lead - ESPECIALLY developing nations, which today are totally coerced into agreeing with the WTO's biased policies and trade management if they want to have any trade with any industrialized nations at all. In essence, industrialized nations are engaging in cartel behavior with each other through these agreements (on behalf of multinational corporations), and since we hold such immense power and no real competitors have arisen outside of these agreements, developing nations are forced to accept the WTO's terms or suffer through economic isolation. Real, unilateral, unmanaged free trade would be highly beneficial to these countries, because then they'd be able to decide for themselves who they want to trade with and in what ways (instead of forcing themselves to open themselves up completely if they want to import or export anything at all)...and if the leaders of a developing country decide they don't want "Globocorp" setting up shop there and draining the country's collective resources, they'd be able to make that call - without sacrificing their ability to make necessary imports and exports (a decision which would incidentally help our own manufacturing base). Besides, managed trade agreements HAVE to go: "Free trade" isn't really free if we're forcing everyone else by the barrel of a gun to be "totally free" if they want to have any trade at all.

Anyway...so, how do we regrow our manufacturing base? Simple: Get the blasted government out of the way:
  • Get rid of federal regulations and corporate welfare: Right now our economy is utterly dominated by multinational corporations, and way too many government regulations exist that help them at the expense of everyone else (since they're the "incumbents") and hamper competition. Also, the government constantly helps out these same companies directly with subsidies and special contracts. Essentially, it's currently profitable for large corporations to spend tons of money lobbying for regulations that will lock out competition (which, needless to say, it quite wasteful). Reasserting the legitimacy of the Constitution (and the illegitimacy of all of the regulations and subsidies) would even the playing field. It would also increase the overall size, efficiency, and benevolence of the economy: When companies have to sink or swim in dealing with real competition, that means they have more competition for both customers AND employees, so they have to be quite friendly to both consumers and workers. When we open doors to real free market competition, we allow the economy to grow more (and better) jobs and overall wealth.
  • Drastically reduce the tax burden Every dollar that goes to the government is mostly wasted potential - sure, it will often circulate back into the domestic free market eventually, but it will still continually be recycled into the government through further taxation. Since government programs are so damn wasteful and inefficient (since the federal government isn't really accountable to anyone for performance, federal bureaucracies are the closest thing on earth to eternal life, and we the people hardly have a voice in these matters), moving all of this money back into the free market will greatly increase the amount of money that people and companies will have to save, invest, or buy things with. Since private investment will rise, it follows that entrepreneurialism, competition, and innovation will also increase.
  • Drastically reduce the tax burden, part 2: Also, it's important to note that our own manufacturing jobs are often being outsourced to developing countries. Since there's very little competition in those countries, the multinational corporations that go over there have supply and demand wayyyyy in their favor and they can therefore exploit the workers (since millions of people want the job). This situation hurts everyone except for "Globocorp" shareholders - it hurts our manufacturing base and it hurts the long-term economies of those other countries (because with all of the third world citizens scrambling for nickel-an-hour jobs making money for a multinational, their country's resources are being misplaced, when they could be going towards growing their own economy). One of the major reasons corporations outsource labor overseas in the first place is because our tax burdens are so high that it's more profitable to move offshore. HOWEVER, outsourcing labor comes at a huge price, especially when you're trying to sell your goods back to the American people: Shipping costs, moving costs, etc. If our tax burdens were much lower, it would be more profitable for them to hire workers in the US (since the costs of outsourcing would begin to eclipse the benefits of paying sweatshop wages).
  • Get rid of the inflation tax: This one's obvious - every time money is printed, it's a transfer of wealth from the poor and middle class to the government and whoever the government hands the money over to, and most of the time, those recipients are wealthy (Debt payments to international bankers? Exclusive no-bid contracts with Halliburton? Corporate welfare?). Besides destroying the savings of ordinary Americans, it also feeds corporate welfare and thereby works to gimp competition.

This was a bit of a rambling post, but the point is...as long as we get rid of all of the government that's in the way of our own economy, we can grow into an economic powerhouse again - and then, other countries will want to trade with us enough that it'll be worth pulling out of their stupid little agreements. :)

P.S. While we probably need to keep some relatively large tax resources around long enough to bail us out of the Social Security mess, it really wouldn't take much revenue to fund a truly Constitutional government...if you really think about it, we'd mostly just be paying for our military, the courts, and the salaries of a few politicians. :) Nearly everything else would be left to the states and the free market. Small uniform tariffs (low enough as to not piss anyone off :p) and excise taxes would probably be sufficient for such a limited governmental role...
 
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We'd trade with Cuba. Hahaha. Just kidding. I think they'd still be willing to trade with us, since we have a large market of people who don't research the products they buy.
 
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