2012: Ron Paul vs. Gary Johnson

bobbyw24

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By W. James Antle, III on 12.14.10 @ 2:20PM

Daniel Larison and Mark Thompson make the case that libertarians -- and, presumably, paleoconservatives -- would be better off if both Ron Paul and Gary Johnson ran for president in 2012. Larison further argues that "it would largely help to have more competitors in the Republican primary defending civil liberties, arguing against unnecessary wars, and presenting an uncompromising challenge to Republican enabling of government profligacy and debt."

Purely from the perspective of the message sent in debates, which was clearly a big part of Paul's influence in 2008, that could be true (if they are both disciplined about focusing on these arguments rather than letting their competitors or the moderators bait them into ideological sideshows). But there is also an electoral impact to consider. If you look at the national polls, Paul is polling roughly where Pat Buchanan was before the 1996 primaries. Buchanan didn't win the nomination but he did have a breakthrough year. Paul, whose supporters are more organized to build on any successes in the Republican primaries, may be similarly poised.

If Gary Johnson ran and Paul didn't, he would have to build his support from scratch. And while many of us hoped he would be able to take a broadly Paulian platform a step further based on his record as governor and more mainstream image, very little in what I've seen of his public appearances or interviews in the last year bears this out. Johnson would be much easier to reduce to a libertarian cartoon character and, for that reason, I think he'd probably be a step back.

If Paul and Johnson both run, it will spilt the already limited Republican vote for their ideas at a time when Paul's support might be reaching critical mass.

More

http://spectator.org/blog/2010/12/14/ron-paul-vs-gary-johnson
 
Well thought out at least without the hyperbole.

I doubt that it would come down to a split in New Hampshire. Johnson and Paul both have the same goal of advancing liberty. If there was a chance for one to take the lead and go on to win, the other would certainly step down and endorse the other.

The participation of both in the debates is crucial.
 
One question I have though: "There's a Buchanan tie-in here too: Alan Keyes detracted from Buchanan's presidential bid and probably cost him Iowa in 1996."

Doesn't the Iowa caucus have it set up so that there are several rounds, where you choose your first choice, then if that choice is the lowest contender, you go to the next round and pick your second choice?

So, if Keyes and Buchanan supporters were similar...wouldn't the Keyes supporters join Buchanan after Keyes' loss?
 
The best thing that can happen is that GJ gets to be in the debates with Ron, but drops out prior to the actual filing deadlines. I don't think the scheduling makes that possible though.

The Gary Johnson factor will be something that is concerning precisely because it can split or at least siphon the liberty vote. Having multiple candidates forcing the entire field to discuss the Constitution and liberty will be good for everyone. Having multiple liberty candidates to vote for will not.
 
The best thing that can happen is that GJ gets to be in the debates with Ron, but drops out prior to the actual filing deadlines. I don't think the scheduling makes that possible though.

The Gary Johnson factor will be something that is concerning precisely because it can split or at least siphon the liberty vote. Having multiple candidates forcing the entire field to discuss the Constitution and liberty will be good for everyone. Having multiple liberty candidates to vote for will not.

I completely agree, Matt.
It will be good to have both of them on stage, but not both of them on the ballot. Whoever is polling lower between them (Gary) should drop out and endorse the other (Ron) before the primaries.
 
Rumor is that Gary is definitely running, that said, this is going to be very interesting to see pan out. There are a lot of pros and cons. I hope our movement supports Ron over Gary with their time, energy, and money.
 
Rumor is that Gary is definitely running, that said, this is going to be very interesting to see pan out. There are a lot of pros and cons. I hope our movement supports Ron over Gary with their time, energy, and money.
I expect the split to come with the beltway libertarians (Reason, Cato) supporting Gary over Ron.
 
it's all about ideas folks. This is a revolution of ideas, and the more people we have speaking about Liberty and freedom the better. Who knows really, maybe Gary will appeal to people who wont support Ron Paul simply because of how hes been labeled.

I would just caution everyone from thinking that this election is all about "votes." I've heard everyone and their dog say that they only want Ron to run if he's going to "win"

Most people still aren't aware what the FED does and still support the TSA and all these other bullshit organizations so i don't see things changing overnight, but i do believe that we can make huge inroads and increase our numbers by a large margin.
 
If Gary runs, I don't think Ron will run.
Don't bet on it. I like Gary and would vote for him or even work for him (but not over Ron). However he is not very articulate, and he doesn't have as much depth as Ron does. Maybe that makes him appeal more to the masses? I dunno, but I just don't see him as being as popular as Ron, especially with Ron around.
 
The country/dems just elected a president that didn't have as much depth as the other (not talking about bad policies here). Like Chuck Baldwin in 2008, Gary Johnson may be just as sincere about freedom, and have executive experience as governor, but for depth of knowledge on the topics front and center right now, I don't see how anyone possibly running comes close to Ron.
Someone posted a speech by Calvin Coolidge here last week (title something like "Ron Paul elected President 74 Years Ago"). It proves you don't have to be a great public speaker to win. Some see this as one Ron's drawbacks.
It's a tough call.
Of course, if CPAC and Iowa straw polls go Ron's way, his "50-50" chance of running will probably give way to another run. How many people at CPAC are going to vote for Gary Johnson there?
 
How many people at CPAC are going to vote for Gary Johnson there?

Johnson will be getting people to CPAC to vote for him who would have otherwise not even known about CPAC or much about Ron Paul.

There's a large electorate out there. Johnson is bringing people in that don't know much about Paul. This is good for us.

It's like having a TV and a radio campaign going on at the same time. They'll both reach different people and sometimes the same people.

Johnson also said he's in this long term (ie 2016)...He knows that this is Ron Paul's last chance and there's no way he would get in the way if Paul has a shot.
 
Don't bet on it. I like Gary and would vote for him or even work for him (but not over Ron). However he is not very articulate, and he doesn't have as much depth as Ron does. Maybe that makes him appeal more to the masses? I dunno, but I just don't see him as being as popular as Ron, especially with Ron around.

That's my issue with Johnson. Remember way back in 2007 when Ron Paul had a name recognition issue. Johnson's gonna get a lot of people saying "Gary who?" Ooooh, the Gov. of the very important state of new mexico.
 
Gary Johnson will catch on about as much Jim Gilmore or Tommy Thompson in 2008.

Hoo-ray though for splitting the support. I'm sure the neocons are quite grateful.
 
I'm torn about this, as I am concerned a Johnson candidacy could dissuade Ron Paul from running again- and I would support Dr. Paul over Johnson every turn of the election cycle and twice in presidential years- or else unnecessarily split the liberty vote in the primaries. I agree with others here that the best-case scenario would be for both of them to announce their candidacies, participate in the debates, and agree that whichever one of them (hopefully, and probably, Johnson) was polling lower would drop out before the primaries.
 
Yeah this is gonna be a bitch to watch unfold not knowing what if anything is going on behind the scenes

Not to infer that anyone on this forum is going to sit back and watch
 
Gary Johnson's pro-choice and hasn't really been in the national spotlight at all compared to Ron. Gary might have some more wiggle room on foreign policy if he shapes his rhetoric, since people don't really know who he is, but I think Ron is still going to be way more viable. If Ron doesn't run, I'll put my full support behind Gary, but I hope Gary puts his full support behind Ron if Ron runs
 
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