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What happened to me this past weekend...

silus

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
1,468
*Edit: maybe this should be in Civil Liberties*

This is not a 'bearing arms' topic, but of self-defense, and what I learned that may be of use...

Sparing the irrelevant details, I got into a fist fight in the middle of a fancy downtown bar. Basically I was either pushed very hard or sucker punched by the individual, almost completely unprovoked, which thus initiated the fight. It seemed to go on for a bit until the bouncers got in the middle of it. I was calm in talking to them and was taken outside thinking I was in good standing as I was just defending myself. I did assume I would be kicked out, but what I didn't assume was that the guy I fought with would be freely taking pictures of me with his phone from inside the bar patio, as if he had done nothing.

I started questioning the bouncer what the hell was going on, as he knew I was just defending myself, but apparently it was in my "best interest" to leave, and that the individual was "heavy" in these parts, which pissed me off even further. I end up leaving with encouragement from a friend, but come back because my debit card was there (which my friend goes in and gets), and another friend of mine who actually works there and gets us in free comes out and puts his finger in my face and tells me about how I jeopardized his job (he didnt even ask my side of it). I didn't even argue, I just left.

To be honest, this incident left me very saddened, and i'm not quick to admit that type of thing. I was acting in complete self defense, but due to the person I was dealing with, the facts of the story become irrelevant. All that mattered was who it involved. And apparently from multiple accounts he is a noted criminal that spends lots of money there. And for that reason apparently he has free reign to do whatever he wants, and those surrounding him will be quick to tell others they are wrong without care for any details.

All I want to say here is that when it comes down to it, there are some that will cling to their interests and there are some that will cling to their principles. And its important to have them clearly defined. Because there will be certain environments, small and large, where the facts, reality, the overwhelming justification for your actions, will not stand up to the the opposing forces against you. This is where, imo, the realist school of foreign policy exists. Where power is really the only force that matters, and right and wrong is irrelevant. From first hand experience, I see how it can literally alter reality and shape people's view of the world. So next time you take a stand for what you think is right, consider the forces involved, and don't assume that will change the number of people supporting you. That is all...
 
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The buddy who gets you in for free was likely jeopardizing their own job long before this fight, because businesses are usually not in existence for the purpose of catering to their employees' buddies free of charge. By you not keeping a "low profile," it just upped the chances he would get caught. This is not your fault.

The owner, in a perfect world and even to some extent in this imperfect one, has the right to decide the other customer is worth more to him than you (especially since it seems you got in for free?). It doesn't seem like they roughed you up on the way out, and the police weren't called, which were all decent things.

Of course, you are within your rights to not take your money there ever again, and to tell your story to people who might find it very relevant and also not go there in the future. Again, you were getting in for free, so I'm not sure how much impact your not going there will have.

You got into a scuffle on private property, and it was settled by the private property owner or a valid agent. You haven't mentioned otherwise. If you believe the actual owner would side with you (and not the bouncer), you could always take it up with the owner. Of course, for all you know the "criminal" is related to the owner :p
 
Come on, admit it. You called the guy a cocksucker.
 
I would deal with the individual privately and personally (probably alone and after dark) and not post details publicly.
And there are always other bars that do want your money. ;)
 
I would deal with the individual privately and personally (probably alone and after dark) and not post details publicly.
And there are always other bars that do want your money. ;)

Yeah but those won't let him in for free....
 
Yeah but those won't let him in for free....

Never go to bars that charge for entrance. They make plenty off drinks and food. and I always tip.

but that's me.
I prefer dives. dark, smelly and ugly places. Real people there. :cool:
 
Never go to bars that charge for entrance. They make plenty off drinks and food. and I always tip.

but that's me.
I prefer dives. dark, smelly and ugly places. Real people there. :cool:

I don't go to bars :p Problem solved.
 
Never go to bars that charge for entrance. They make plenty off drinks and food. and I always tip.

but that's me.
I prefer dives. dark, smelly and ugly places. Real people there. :cool:

:cool:

I'll also note, that most of my times spent in bars was while I was in the CG...

3 fights over 3 year period on my ship. They were all at "mainstream" bars.

In the NUMEROUS dives that myself and several others preferred-not a one fight, argument, nothing. Even the ones in Costa Rica, Ecuador, Panama, Jamaica.

Baltimore had some of the best dives I've been too, and no one could argue that that whole place is a shithole.:D

OP-hope your ok.
 
I think the OP has illustrated a vitally important point. No matter how much right is on your side, or ethical you are in your conduct, you can not depend on that being sufficient to resolve conflict in your favor. In a civilized society, being right would be the deciding point, but even civilization depends on men ready to do violence to ensure that the right prevails.

Or, as we used to say in the Army:

"I will fear no evil, for I am the heaviest armed son of a Bitch in the valley."
 
The buddy who gets you in for free was likely jeopardizing their own job long before this fight, because businesses are usually not in existence for the purpose of catering to their employees' buddies free of charge.
It doesn't sound like you go out much, but its normal for employees to have "guest lists." Its a perk for working there, and its actually good for business.

I think the OP has illustrated a vitally important point. No matter how much right is on your side, or ethical you are in your conduct, you can not depend on that being sufficient to resolve conflict in your favor. In a civilized society, being right would be the deciding point, but even civilization depends on men ready to do violence to ensure that the right prevails.
This was my only point. Its not really about what happened with me, but what can occur in a given environment even when you have all things working in your favor. How often does this occur in government or in the media. The enemy of truth is interest and influence, and it is what alters our views as individuals and as a society constantly.

BTW, I might have broken my hand, but thats the extent of it. Thanks for asking.
 
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Never go to bars that charge for entrance. They make plenty off drinks and food. and I always tip.

but that's me.
I prefer dives. dark, smelly and ugly places. Real people there. :cool:

:cool:

I'll also note, that most of my times spent in bars was while I was in the CG...

3 fights over 3 year period on my ship. They were all at "mainstream" bars.

In the NUMEROUS dives that myself and several others preferred-not a one fight, argument, nothing. Even the ones in Costa Rica, Ecuador, Panama, Jamaica.

Baltimore had some of the best dives I've been too, and no one could argue that that whole place is a shithole.:D

OP-hope your ok.

South Amboy NJ.

I have no more to say.

:D
 
so to recap the place that you illegally entered , as part of your friend defrauding the owner, threw you out.
the fight was in your words "mostly on the other guy" so how much was you? its a lil sparse on detail there
the management chose to retain the badguy (the one who brings them lots of money) over you.

and you are saddened

is it the affront to your liberty to avoid the cover charge that saddens you?
what led up to the fight?
and do you think/imagine that a private property owner should NOT be allowed to choose who can stay?

lastly how drunk were you?
 
It doesn't sound like you go out much, but its normal for employees to have "guest lists." Its a perk for working there, and its actually good for business.

....

I do go out much. I pay my own way. I've had people offer me "free" drinks, cover, food, cab rides, hotel rooms, plane tickets, or any number of other things, or those same things with a deep discount. I don't accept; there's almost always a string or two attached somewhere.

My point was not that you're a bum for accepting, but that you have very little "protest power" in this case. "Hey I'll take my $0 elsewhere, thank you!" is not a very potent argument. On the flipside, the person who you are making a great many assumptions about based on hearsay, seems to pay in quite a bit of money to the business. The choice is fairly clear from an owner's standpoint.

The businessowner may keep those guest lists in play, but you're not going to have a leg to stand on if they don't want you on that list anymore. If a place is busy, the "guest list" has more to do with owners and VIPs than some employee at the bar.

Don't go there anymore, find a new friend (this one seems really tempermental), and if you really feel like it, get mad at the owner and let them know how pissed you are and that you're taking your business (?) elsewhere and telling everyone you know about your experience. Those relevant people can then decide whether or not they are going to frequent this awful establishment.

It seems pretty straightforward.
 
so to recap the place that you illegally entered...
What is illegal is not established based on your own personal feelings, unless you are sympathetic to dictatorships.
I do go out much. I pay my own way. I've had people offer me "free" drinks, cover, food, cab rides, hotel rooms, plane tickets, or any number of other things, or those same things with a deep discount. I don't accept; there's almost always a string or two attached somewhere.

My point was not that you're a bum for accepting, but that you have very little "protest power" in this case. "Hey I'll take my $0 elsewhere, thank you!" is not a very potent argument. On the flipside, the person who you are making a great many assumptions about based on hearsay, seems to pay in quite a bit of money to the business. The choice is fairly clear from an owner's standpoint.

The businessowner may keep those guest lists in play, but you're not going to have a leg to stand on if they don't want you on that list anymore. If a place is busy, the "guest list" has more to do with owners and VIPs than some employee at the bar.

Don't go there anymore, find a new friend (this one seems really tempermental), and if you really feel like it, get mad at the owner and let them know how pissed you are and that you're taking your business (?) elsewhere and telling everyone you know about your experience. Those relevant people can then decide whether or not they are going to frequent this awful establishment.

It seems pretty straightforward.
*Sigh* You're wasting your time on a completely irrelevant point. I spent several hundred dollars there. Getting on the guest list is not to avoid a small entrance fee, its to get past the line, not that would matter if my motive was to save a couple bucks on what clubs do to attract regular business... I already stated what my real point/lesson learned was. If you found that useful, great, if not, oh well. Just stop making up useless points.
 
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