The Libertarian Case for a Basic Income

[kahless]

The Libertarian Case for a Basic Income
https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/libertarian-case-basic-income

Current federal social welfare programs in the United States are an expensive, complicated mess. According to Michael Tanner, the federal government spent more than $668 billion on over one hundred and twenty-six anti-poverty programs in 2012. When you add in the $284 billion spent by state and local governments, that amounts to $20,610 for every poor person in America.

Wouldn’t it be better just to write the poor a check?

The Pragmatic Libertarian Case for a Basic Income Guarantee
https://www.cato-unbound.org/2014/0...matic-libertarian-case-basic-income-guarantee

Cheaper

Second, a BIG could be considerably cheaper than the current welfare state. How much cheaper depends on the details of the particular proposal. Some, like Murray’s, which involve a progressive tax on the BIG once a certain threshold of income is reached, appear to be considerably cheaper. Other analyses, like Ed Dolan’s, suggest only that a moderate BIG would not cost more than what we currently spend.

Milton Friedman on Universal Basic Income
https://heavy.com/news/2019/06/milton-friedman-on-ubi/

Friedman Thought UBI Gave People More Freedom...
Friedman Wanted to Cut-out Government Interference in People’s Lives....
Friedman Thought UBI Would Enable Work & Increase Equality....

Why Did Hayek Support a Basic Income?
https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/why-did-hayek-support-basic-income

On the other hand.

4 New Reasons to Fear a Universal Basic Income
https://mises.org/wire/4-new-reasons-fear-universal-basic-income

Don’t Be Duped by the Latest "Universal Basic Income" Scheme
https://mises.org/wire/dont-be-duped-latest-universal-basic-income-scheme

The Hidden Costs of a Universal Basic Income
https://mises.org/wire/hidden-costs-universal-basic-income

Thoughts?

 

[Swordsmyth]

UBI is r selecting, the idea of getting free resources just for existing warps the mind and turns people into liberals, any libertarian society that adopted it would not remain libertarian for long.

You'd be better off with a one time massive redistribution of assets to compensate for the many generations of theft by the Fed etc.

 

[nobody's_hero]

UBI is r selecting, the idea of getting free resources just for existing warps the mind and turns people into liberals, any libertarian society that adopted it would not remain libertarian for long.

You'd be better off with a one time massive redistribution of assets to compensate for the many generations of theft by the Fed etc.

Indeed. Money is supposed to be compensation for time and labor. If they start giving people money just for exchanging oxygen for CO2, I see trouble down the line.

It'll turn out to be like the plethora of welfare programs that incentivize people to do the absolute minimum to be able to still qualify to receive benefits. It's sad, but there are people who do things like work fewer hours to stay just under the poverty line, or they won't get married because they will lose their handouts. This won't bode well for society.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Indeed. Money is supposed to be compensation for time and labor. If they start giving people money just for exchanging oxygen for CO2, I see trouble down the line.

It'll turn out to be like the plethora of welfare programs that incentivize people to do the absolute minimum to be able to still qualify to receive benefits. It's sad, but there are people who do things like work fewer hours to stay just under the poverty line, or they won't get married because they will lose their handouts. This won't bode well for society.

It also gives government the power to reduce or stop the money if you don't do what it wants, just look at all the states that take federal money.

 

[timosman]

It also gives government the power to reduce or stop the money if you don't do what it wants, just look at all the states that take federal money.

That's not really forcing anything, the argument goes, the participants opt in willingly.

 

[phill4paul]

It'll start at $20k. Then move to $30k. Then move to.....

Everyone has the RIGHT to be rich.

Stupid Libertarians.

 

[pcosmar]

It'll start at $20k. Then move to $30k. Then move to.....

Everyone has the RIGHT to be rich.

Stupid Libertarians.

LOL

$20,610 for every poor person in America.

I don't get that much on SS. (under $10k)

I could live Large on $20k.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

It'll start at $20k. Then move to $30k. Then move to.....

Everyone has the RIGHT to be rich.

Stupid Libertarians.

Andrew Yang is a cheapskate. I would give everyone a million dollars every year. Everyone will be a millionaire every January 1st.

 

[Sammy]

UBI is better than the welfare state but I don't support it.

 

[kahless]

UBI is better than the welfare state but I don't support it.

I am on the fence since I have seen evidence it would reduce it and evidence it will not. What I do know is having no solution to replace social services will continue to grow big government. A more authoritarian form of government at that. Where UBI keeps the government out of peoples lives even those who do need the UBI. Just look at healthcare. If we moved to more of a UBI like solutions maybe we would not be having the conversation about government taking complete control over our healthcare.

There is a perception that Libertarians have consistently failed to provide solutions to reduce the size of the welfare state. As a result the welfare state and government involvement in our lives continues to grow. To me it seems obvious that sustainable private charitable solutions should be promoted as an alternative. But where are these libertarians? We hear nothing from the most vocal other than disdain for their fellow man and that is to their own detriment. This selfishness and not providing solutions to get us out of the clutches of big government is the reason why we are stuck with it.

The most vocal libertarians it seems are the crony Capitalists, with a let them die and indentured servitude to them rather than government attitude. So the average person sees just two terrible choices. Although Crony Capitalism is a step better since the Cronies fail with competition. Where as Crony government we are stuck with it and that is what people need to understand when it comes to people like Bernie Sanders. The problem again is these same libertarians support monopolies which is just as bad as crony government and again that is all the Sanders type supporters will see.

Effectively we are ending up with big government due to the crony libertarians are the loudest of the bunch while others are living a pipe dream demanding no government and therefore unwilling to make concessions to reduce the size of government. So government grows larger by the day.

You want to reduce the size of government and keep government out of our lives then libertarians better start speaking up with alternative solutions rather than being absolute in their beliefs.

The UBI seems to me like a good start as a possible solution to replace the welfare state, reduce it's size and keep government out of our lives.

 

[Matt Collins]

No such thing.

Libertarianism and UBI are diametrically opposed and are in fact mutually exclusive.

 

[timosman]

Has life become too complicated for an average peon to cope? I think I started a thread on this subject but it might have been deleted.

 

[Swordsmyth]

I am on the fence since I have seen evidence it would reduce it and evidence it will not. What I do know is having no solution to replace social services will continue to grow big government. A more authoritarian form of government at that. Where UBI keeps the government out of peoples lives even those who do need the UBI. Just look at healthcare. If we moved to more of a UBI like solutions maybe we would not be having the conversation about government taking complete control over our healthcare.

There is a perception that Libertarians have consistently failed to provide solutions to reduce the size of the welfare state. As a result the welfare state and government involvement in our lives continues to grow. To me it seems obvious that sustainable private charitable solutions should be promoted as an alternative. But where are these libertarians? We hear nothing from the most vocal other than disdain for their fellow man and that is to their own detriment. This selfishness and not providing solutions to get us out of the clutches of big government is the reason why we are stuck with it.

The most vocal libertarians it seems are the crony Capitalists, with a let them die and indentured servitude to them rather than government attitude. So the average person sees just two terrible choices. Although Crony Capitalism is a step better since the Cronies fail with competition. Where as Crony government we are stuck with it and that is what people need to understand when it comes to people like Bernie Sanders. The problem again is these same libertarians support monopolies which is just as bad as crony government and again that is all the Sanders type supporters will see.

Effectively we are ending up with big government due to the crony libertarians are the loudest of the bunch while others are living a pipe dream demanding no government and therefore unwilling to make concessions to reduce the size of government. So government grows larger by the day.

You want to reduce the size of government and keep government out of our lives then libertarians better start speaking up with alternative solutions rather than being absolute in their beliefs.

The UBI seems to me like a good start as a possible solution to replace the welfare state, reduce it's size and keep government out of our lives.

The problem is that rich libertarians (usually crony libertarians) tend to be selfish and don't intend to ever set up charities while the rest of us tend to be too poor to do that kind of thing.

I think the first thing to do is find ways to get government out of the way so people can make a living and not need so much charity and so that more people can afford to give to charity.

 

[Stratovarious]

The Libertarian Case for a Basic Income
https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/libertarian-case-basic-income


The Pragmatic Libertarian Case for a Basic Income Guarantee
https://www.cato-unbound.org/2014/0...matic-libertarian-case-basic-income-guarantee


Milton Friedman on Universal Basic Income
https://heavy.com/news/2019/06/milton-friedman-on-ubi/


Why Did Hayek Support a Basic Income?
https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/why-did-hayek-support-basic-income

On the other hand.

4 New Reasons to Fear a Universal Basic Income
https://mises.org/wire/4-new-reasons-fear-universal-basic-income

Don’t Be Duped by the Latest "Universal Basic Income" Scheme
https://mises.org/wire/dont-be-duped-latest-universal-basic-income-scheme

The Hidden Costs of a Universal Basic Income
https://mises.org/wire/hidden-costs-universal-basic-income

Thoughts?

This thread title reeks to high heaven of infiltrators, fake libertarians like Gary Johnson, this isn't something
you would ever hear form a real libertarian/constitutionalist.
Is this a policy that you endorse Kahless?

 

[kahless]

This thread title reeks to high heaven of infiltrators, fake libertarians like Gary Johnson, this isn't something
you would ever hear form a real libertarian/constitutionalist.
Is this a policy that you endorse Kahless?

The thread title is from the first article I posted from https://www.libertarianism.org. See my post above this one for the answer.

To add to that: We will never live in a libertarian like society and I blame libertarians for this since as demonstrated time and time again in this forum people are demanding the country be completely libertarian over night. That is not going to happen. It took the Progressives 100 years to get to where they are today. The best we can do is reduce the size and role of government incrementally.

 

[Stratovarious]

The thread title is from the first article I posted from https://www.libertarianism.org. See my post above this one for the answer.

To add to that: We will never live in a libertarian like society and I blame libertarians for this since as demonstrated time and time again in this forum people are demanding the country be completely libertarian over night. That is not going to happen. It took the Progressives 100 years to get to where they are today. The best we can do is reduce the size and role of government incrementally.

lol , I thought the thread title was about libertarians offering Basic Income, my bad......

 

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

If you give up the principle, you're just haggling over price.

 

[kahless]

If you give up the principle, you're just haggling over price.

So stick to your principles and let opportunities pass to reduce it's size. Just stay 1% and let the Communists eventually take over. Principles, got it.

Seems libertarians have been purposefully brainwashed to never give an inch intentionally as useful tools for Progressives, Socialists and Communists to implement their plans without any real opposition.

 

[dannno]

No such thing.

Libertarianism and UBI are diametrically opposed and are in fact mutually exclusive.

Depends on how you look at it.

A libertarian might prefer a UBI of $100 per year to each person that costs each person $100 in taxes over a welfare state that costs each person $10,000 per year in taxes.

However, you would be correct that a libertarian in a free society that has no state welfare would not promote a UBI.

 

[specsaregood]

At the very least, I'd argue that in order to receive UBI you must first voluntarily get sterilized. If you need UBI, then you are in no position to be spawning more children.