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Remind me: Can police ask/take my License if I'm not driving?

jonhowe

Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Messages
1,820
A friend of mine told me he was walking home from a party drunk when he was surrounded by some cops, who asked for his License. He wasn't driving, so he asked why he needed to give it to them, and they told him it was the law. After checking it (and seeing he was underage, eep!) they just... took it. It's been 2 days now, and he's not sure what to do.

So I guess thats the 1st question, how should he go about getting this back?

2ndly, is it legal for cops to require me to show my driver's license when Im not "using it", IE, driving?
If so, why?


Thanks,
Jon
 
I would consult a lawyer admitted to the bar in your state of residence or maybe the ACLU. Laws are different everywhere but I don't see why someone would have to provide identification if they have done nothing wrong. I would start by saying "Have I done something wrong?" the next step would be, "Am I being detained?"

Start here: http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14528res20040730.html

There is some good info on that page regarding dealing with the police.
 
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Just tell them you don't have a license to give them.

This does not mean you don't have a license, it just means you don' t have one you want to give to them.

If they then search you and find the license, you can tell them that license was the one you didn't want to give them.

In other words, you didn't want to give them the license you had.
 
#1, If all they did was take it and not charge him with anything, go to your local motor vehicle department, tell them you lost it, and you need a duplicate.

#2, if a cop stops me while I am walking and ask me for ID, I tell them sorry I dont carry my ID.
If they ask me to empty my pockets, I say, "Why? I havent done anything wrong, you dont have the right to search me.*
When they ask me my info I say Tom Hicks, I live at 124 Elm st. (which is not my information, just pick something easy to remember and spell.)

*At this point the officer may get aggravated an forcefully take your wallet from you, find your license, and charge you with interference in an police investigation, or some other crap.
 
#1, If all they did was take it and not charge him with anything, go to your local motor vehicle department, tell them you lost it, and you need a duplicate.

#2, if a cop stops me while I am walking and ask me for ID, I tell them sorry I dont carry my ID.
If they ask me to empty my pockets, I say, "Why? I havent done anything wrong, you dont have the right to search me.*
When they ask me my info I say Tom Hicks, I live at 124 Elm st. (which is not my information, just pick something easy to remember and spell.)

*At this point the officer may get aggravated an forcefully take your wallet from you, find your license, and charge you with interference in an police investigation, or some other crap.

Right, I'd just go get a new one.

I would'nt lie to them about who you are, just politely ask them if you're free to leave, and if not then ask them the charges.
 
Laws vary by state, but generally these are the rules for pedestrians as I understand them.

If you are not under arrest you do not have to present any identification to the police for any reason. Sure they can ask for it, and you can refuse the request. In PA you are required to give them your name and address if they ask, but do not have to show the ID card. If you are under arrest them you must produce legal ID. If you are not sure if you are under arrest, ask them. Chances are they will give you some smartass remark like "not yet you aren't." If that is the case just politely tell them that you are going to be getting on your way and leave. Don't speak with them anymore. Ignore them.


I am 24 years old now, but I had a rough past. I was arrested for underage drinking about 5 times, so i am speaking from experience. If the police smelled alcohol on your friend, that gives them probable cause to administer a beathalyzer test and subsequent arrest. Of course this type of probable cause can not ever be verified in court which makes it a very corrupt practice, but one that is generally accepted anyway.

Seeing how your friend was not placed under arrest, he got off easy. Tell him to go buy a new license and forget about it. He may recieve a citation for underage drinking in the mail in a few weeks. If he does, he should be able to plead not guilty and win since we was not placed under arrest at the time of the incident.

ALso, never lie to the police about who you are. I tried this once. When they find out you are lieing they tack on another charge (something like falsification of identity) which in many cases can be a more serious charge then the original offense. If your are insistant on not cooperating the the police, telling them nothing at all is much better then lieing.
 
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Drunk and disorderly is a crime, they could have arrested him. They let him go but took his license. tell him to go replace his "lost" license, cops do that as a way of fining you without court action. Illegal as hell, but the cure is worse than the endurance of their crap.
 
These type of threads frustrate me because they're often filled with responses from people who have no idea what they're talking about.

I'm a police officer, and even then, I'm only qualified to speak in regards to my own state (Pennsylvania). My advicve, first and foremost, would be to follow the advice of ryanmkeisling, who said your friend should consult an attorney licensed to practice in his state, or contact the ACLU branch in that state.

Generally speaking, many states have laws requiring you to identify yourself if detained (as in, an investigative detention). An "investigative detention" is a stop supported by reasonable suspicion, which is a lesser standard than probable cause.

However, to my knowledge, most states that require you to identify yourself do not require you to produce government ID. You simply must provide valid personal info (name, date of birth, and address). So I'd ignore the poster advising you to lie.

In many states, being drunk in public to the degree that you cause a problem is illegal. Assuming that this is the case in your friends scenario, then he was lawfully detained upon reasonable suspicion. As such, he is likely required by law to identify himself, but not necessarily provide a driver's license (because, like you said, he wasn't driving).

As for keeping the license, that's something that I can't really speak to because I'm not sure what state this occured in. I can speculate and say that, technically speaking, the state owns your physical driver's license (it's why they can suspend it and then take the physical license). Many states automatically suspend your driver's license for an underage drinking conviction, so perhaps that was the reasoning. Of course, that begs the issue of a lack of due process, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Of course, it could have just been an oversight by the officer who forgot he had it. I've done just that before - driven off with someone's DL, registration, etc without realizing it.
 
These type of threads frustrate me because they're often filled with responses from people who have no idea what they're talking about.

I'm a police officer, and even then, I'm only qualified to speak in regards to my own state (Pennsylvania). My advicve, first and foremost, would be to follow the advice of ryanmkeisling, who said your friend should consult an attorney licensed to practice in his state, or contact the ACLU branch in that state.

Generally speaking, many states have laws requiring you to identify yourself if detained (as in, an investigative detention). An "investigative detention" is a stop supported by reasonable suspicion, which is a lesser standard than probable cause.

However, to my knowledge, most states that require you to identify yourself do not require you to produce government ID. You simply must provide valid personal info (name, date of birth, and address). So I'd ignore the poster advising you to lie.

In many states, being drunk in public to the degree that you cause a problem is illegal. Assuming that this is the case in your friends scenario, then he was lawfully detained upon reasonable suspicion. As such, he is likely required by law to identify himself, but not necessarily provide a driver's license (because, like you said, he wasn't driving).

As for keeping the license, that's something that I can't really speak to because I'm not sure what state this occured in. I can speculate and say that, technically speaking, the state owns your physical driver's license (it's why they can suspend it and then take the physical license). Many states automatically suspend your driver's license for an underage drinking conviction, so perhaps that was the reasoning. Of course, that begs the issue of a lack of due process, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Of course, it could have just been an oversight by the officer who forgot he had it. I've done just that before - driven off with someone's DL, registration, etc without realizing it.

So you agree with most of what I said in my post? Anyway, what part of PA? If you are in montgomery county maybe you arrested me for underage drinking before. ;)
 
........

Of course, it could have just been an oversight by the officer who forgot he had it. I've done just that before - driven off with someone's DL, registration, etc without realizing it.

So then of course, since they have their address on the license, you mailed it back to them?
 
Additionally in most states you only need to give them your name if you have done something wrong or have been suspected of doing something wrong.

Also if giving your name or address will incriminate you state that you plead the 5th and ask if you are free to go. If not then ask if you are under arrest. If you will incriminate yourself it is better to let the court show the officer he was wrong for arresting you for standing up for your right to not incriminate yourself.
 
So then of course, since they have their address on the license, you mailed it back to them?

No, the few times it happened were local people, so I just brought it back to them. I worked in a small town at the time.

Brandon, I spent most of my time in law enforcement a bit north of you, in Monroe County. I currently work for an agency in central PA.

I disagree with some of what you posted. In an attempt to not hijack the thread, I'll just say that:

1. It's not always about being arrested. You're not free to leave an investigative detention, but still aren't technically arrested (think traffic stop).

2. The smell of alcoholic beverages can be PC for an arrest of someone underage. I need no PC to administer a preliminary breath test, but you have no legal obligation to take it. (This is different than the breath test required AFTER being arrested for DUI.) Also, I don't need a PBT result to arrest / convict someone for underage drinking.

3. If this guy gets a citation for underage drinking, he should definitely plead not guilty. You should ALWAYS plead not guilty. However, there is no legal requirement that he be arrested at the scene, so the fact that he wasn't arrested immediately isn't a defense to anything. He needs to enter a defense to the actual violation.



NeoRayden, I can think of no instance where your name would incriminate you. Being you isn't illegal. The only scenario I could think that you might be refering to, is if you have a warrant, but you're still not testifying against yourself in regards to your guilt, so that wouldn't fly.
 
NeoRayden, I can think of no instance where your name would incriminate you. Being you isn't illegal. The only scenario I could think that you might be refering to, is if you have a warrant, but you're still not testifying against yourself in regards to your guilt, so that wouldn't fly.

A warrant does not mean you are guilty. If however, you were stopped for one possible infraction, and then having given them your name causes you to be arrested for another infraction, I can see where giving your name may cause them to arrest you for something completely unrelated to the original stop.

I don't like the idea of stopping somebody just to find out if they can find something to arrest them for.
 
No, the few times it happened were local people, so I just brought it back to them. I worked in a small town at the time.

Brandon, I spent most of my time in law enforcement a bit north of you, in Monroe County. I currently work for an agency in central PA.

I disagree with some of what you posted. In an attempt to not hijack the thread, I'll just say that:

1. It's not always about being arrested. You're not free to leave an investigative detention, but still aren't technically arrested (think traffic stop).

2. The smell of alcoholic beverages can be PC for an arrest of someone underage. I need no PC to administer a preliminary breath test, but you have no legal obligation to take it. (This is different than the breath test required AFTER being arrested for DUI.) Also, I don't need a PBT result to arrest / convict someone for underage drinking.

3. If this guy gets a citation for underage drinking, he should definitely plead not guilty. You should ALWAYS plead not guilty. However, there is no legal requirement that he be arrested at the scene, so the fact that he wasn't arrested immediately isn't a defense to anything. He needs to enter a defense to the actual violation.



NeoRayden, I can think of no instance where your name would incriminate you. Being you isn't illegal. The only scenario I could think that you might be refering to, is if you have a warrant, but you're still not testifying against yourself in regards to your guilt, so that wouldn't fly.


Thanks for the clarification. I didn't know that you weren't free to leave an investigative detention. I dont like that sound of that.

I generally have a dislike for cops because of some bad stuff they put me through. They once dragged me out of my house and slammed my head into a windshield simply because I had some people over drinking underage. I was a skinny 18 year old not resisting. I was ranting about the consitution and my rights though.

I'm trying to lose this collectivist mindset, i know you're not all bad.
 
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1. It's not always about being arrested. You're not free to leave an investigative detention, but still aren't technically arrested (think traffic stop).

NeoRayden, I can think of no instance where your name would incriminate you. Being you isn't illegal. The only scenario I could think that you might be referring to, is if you have a warrant, but you're still not testifying against yourself in regards to your guilt, so that wouldn't fly.



1. If you are in Florida and an officer detains you at a traffic stop for more than a curtain period of time and the officer does not charge you with a "crime" as defined as a "felony" or "misdemeanor" by the US Supreme Court you can submit a claim against the jurisdiction for restitution for your time. This is according to a Florida Supreme Court case. I cant find a reference any more for it however.

Just about every US district court has ruled that a person does not have to give there name if they have a warrant because that is incriminating information.
 
Thanks for the clarification. I didn't know that you weren't free to leave an investigative detention. I don't like that sound of that

Don't believe this BS. A detention is defined as an arrest. Both words are interchangeable. The only way you cannot leave is if you are detained (detention)or arrested since they both mean the same. However in order to be arrested you must be charged with a crime.

You should always ask if you are free to go. If they say no then ask them what you are being charged with. If they refuse to tell you then express that you do not wish to continue the conversation and you wish to leave, then keep quite!

They are not on your side and any information you give them is only to their benefit.

REMEMBER THEY ARE NOT THE COURTS! YOU DO NOT NEED TO TALK TO THEM! SAVE YOUR SIDE FOR THE COURT ROOM!


Oh and this is coming from a person that has the local police cowering and has personally arrested three police officers without recourse through the the common law right to citizens arrest.
 
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Don't believe this BS. A detention is defined as an arrest. Both words are interchangeable. The only way you cannot leave is if you are detained (detention)or arrested since they both mean the same. However in order to be arrested you must be charged with a crime.

You should always ask if you are free to go. If they say no then ask them what you are being charged with. If they refuse to tell you then express that you do not wish to continue the conversation and you wish to leave, then keep quite!

They are not on your side and any information you give them is only to their benefit.

REMEMBER THEY ARE NOT THE COURTS! YOU DO NOT NEED TO TALK TO THEM! SAVE YOUR SIDE FOR THE COURT ROOM!

I feel you are right and I want to believe you, but Bravo is an actual officer so I am leaning towards believing him. Dont count on the courts to save you though. If the case boils down to your word against a cops word you will lose every time.
 
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