Question for Christians: Romans 13

[unklejman]

I have been thinking over this and was wondering what others here would have to say about Romans 13 and how it relates to the Revolutionary war as well as what we are doing. I have some ideas of my own but I want to hear from you guys.

Romans 13:1-7

1. Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
4. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
5. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
6. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
7. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

 

[acptulsa]

Well, my first thought is St. Paul wasn't talking about anyone named George, but that's too flip an answer to a serious question. So, let me say that as much respect as St. Paul deserves, he was only St. Paul; that this letter was written in a time when letters were liable to be intercepted and read and Christians were persecuted; and that we can also be tools of God's current will today. So, it doesn't scare me to think God enabled these evil jackasses.

First, maybe it wasn't God. Secondly, even if it was God, what if they've accomplished their purpose and it's time for them to go? Thirdly, we are paying everything to authority and more--we are active and volunteering our time to the G.O.P.

 

[Conza88]

Thirdly, we are paying everything to authority and more--we are active and volunteering our time to the G.O.P.

Volunteering our time to U.S.A. :o

 

[LittleLightShining]

I have my opinions about Paul. Some are good, some aren't. A lot of what he says isn't based on Jesus teachings. This is one of those instances to me.

acp makes a good point, though, and one that I hadn't really thought of before.

that this letter was written in a time when letters were liable to be intercepted and read and Christians were persecuted;

 

[jblosser]

We live in a nation where the established authority is We the People. The Founders lived in a time when that principle was already established in law, and were acting on that duty. The King was not an emporer, and since at least the Magna Carta was himself bound by law and a higher authority.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world."

 

[Perry]

I have been thinking over this and was wondering what others here would have to say about Romans 13 and how it relates to the Revolutionary war as well as what we are doing. I have some ideas of my own but I want to hear from you guys.

Romans 13:1-7

1. Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
4. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
5. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
6. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
7. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

The most extreme example - What did Christ do?
He laid down his life in the face of all this.
Christ spoke the truth and even protested(when he entered the temple and began turning over tables) yet never committed violence.
If we were to be perfect we would not commit violence.

 

[sratiug]

Paul said you shouldn't get married if your not married, because Jesus was returning soon and you needed to devote your life to God. It's a good thing everybody didn't listen to him.

 

[Southron]

I don't really have any answers on the Revolutionary war. I'm no theologian by any means but if you are a Christian and take the Bible as God's word (as do I) then you can't really get around the fact that Paul says "whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God". You have to take it for what it says whether you like it or not.

On the other hand we don't have any "rulers". We aren't subjects of any earthly king in these united States. In this country the Constitution is the supreme law of the land. The people in Washington and our state capitols are just representatives of the people. Theoretically the people are sovereign in this country and they have the right to abolish this government if they so choose, at least according to our founding documents.

So I think we (Christians) should generally submit to authorities, but we also have a duty as being citizens of a republic to uphold the Constitution as well.

 

[UnReconstructed]

When there is a Government that submits itself to God, then those verses apply.

You can't find a Christian in the New Testament that submitted to Roman authority. Even Christ was a "rebel". I can't see where Government was allowed to play any role in the life of God's people in the Bible. Outside of Christians being arrested...

 

[Perry]

Paul said you shouldn't get married if your not married, because Jesus was returning soon and you needed to devote your life to God. It's a good thing everybody didn't listen to him.

I don't believe that's what Paul said. Maybe you can show us the verse.

 

[pcosmar]

This is the problem of trying to hang a doctrine on a single verse while ignoring others.
The Bible has to be taken as a whole, as different parts touch on different aspects.

 

[acptulsa]

This is the problem of trying to hang a doctrine on a single verse while ignoring others.
The Bible has to be taken as a whole, as different parts touch on different aspects.

Truth. Life has billions of variables. If you're looking to any scripture for a set of cookie cutter guidelines instead of a mindset that allows you to react properly to stimuli, you won't find enough scripture or have enough time to read it all. Too many variables, not enough cookie cutters. What volume could possibly encompass every possibility?

 

[Perry]

This is the problem of trying to hang a doctrine on a single verse while ignoring others.
The Bible has to be taken as a whole, as different parts touch on different aspects.

I think you would have a very difficult time finding any theme contrary to "turn the other cheek" in the new testament.

 

[dawnbt]

From what I understand of the passage, Jesus is saying that we are to submit to authorities because God put them there to protect the general public by maintaining good order. If you are following the word and are doing no wrong, you will nothing to worry about. However, if authorities overstep their bounds, you are to follow God's law over man's. Do not retaliate as they will receive their punishment from God.

 

[dawnbt]

I don't believe that's what Paul said. Maybe you can show us the verse.

I Corinthians 7:1-8

1
1 2 3 Now in regard to the matters about which you wrote: "It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman,"
2
but because of cases of immorality every man should have his own wife, and every woman her own husband.
3
The husband should fulfill his duty toward his wife, and likewise the wife toward her husband.
4
A wife does not have authority over her own body, but rather her husband, and similarly a husband does not have authority over his own body, but rather his wife.
5
Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control.
6
This I say by way of concession, 4 however, not as a command.
7
Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am, but each has a particular gift from God, 5 one of one kind and one of another.
8
6 Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do,
9
but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire.

EDIT: Also I Corinthians 7:32-35

I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord.
33
But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,
34
and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
35
I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction

 

[bpassmore]

I’m reminded of several verses here:

Proverbs 21:1
1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Daniel 4:17
17 'The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men.'

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.

9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

and Jeremiah 29:11
11 "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

All this being said can be summarized in this: "God is in control" We might not see his plan, and he surely can’t tell God what to do, but we can be comforted in knowing the God is a good God how has a plan and is working that out. Now, what does that plan mean to you or me? Will we be rich and happy? maybe. But maybe through our suffering a bigger reward for either ourselves or others may be obtained. Maybe not. God is sovereign and His plans are not our plans. The rules and laws in place are set by God (albeit indirectly sometimes)

This pushes us to trust in Him and lean on Him and not unto our own understanding.

This is not to say the we give up and throw our hands in the air and say "que sera sera" - we have been given brains and He intends for us to use them. Search all things He instructs us in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 “Test everything. Hold on to the good. “

Anyways, I don’t want to get way off track here, so to summarize - Trust God is in control, use the wisdom God has given us to make the best decision based on what we know, and try to honor each other and promote the common good which is based on Biblical morality.

 

[LibertiORDeth]

I Corinthians 7:1-8

1
1 2 3 Now in regard to the matters about which you wrote: "It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman,"
2
but because of cases of immorality every man should have his own wife, and every woman her own husband.
3
The husband should fulfill his duty toward his wife, and likewise the wife toward her husband.
4
A wife does not have authority over her own body, but rather her husband, and similarly a husband does not have authority over his own body, but rather his wife.
5
Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control.
6
This I say by way of concession, 4 however, not as a command.
7
Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am, but each has a particular gift from God, 5 one of one kind and one of another.
8
6 Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do,
9
but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire.

EDIT: Also I Corinthians 7:32-35

I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord.
33
But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,
34
and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
35
I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction

Everybody I talk to would try to come up with an alternate meaning, such as meaning divorced people.

 

[nf7mate]

The opening post of this thread posed the question, "What do Christians have to say about Romans 13 and how it relates to the Revolutionary war as well as what we are doing?"

Now there's a bunch of post questioning the validity of the Book of Romans, and whether is acceptable to marry. I'd like to answer the question posed in the opening post.

Romans 13:1-7
1. Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
4. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
5. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
6. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
7. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

God established governing authorities among men to be an agent of God's wrath against the ungodly. Note the scripture doesn't say, "God established authorities to provide housing, food, and medical care to the masses." I often site Romans 13 as an example of Biblical government. The government exists solely to protect God given rights and to punish the wrongdoer. I would add that when a government becomes destructive of the God given rights of the people, then it is not only acceptable to abolish or change such a government, it is the duty of the people to do so.

 

[bj72]

Wow...the misconceptions out there...

Okay, I think the main problem in quoting Scripture this way is it is not taken in contex as a whole. I also think that as Americans, most misinterpret Scriptures. Americans (as a whole, not all) tend to view the Scriptures in a Greek mindset. They have no knowledge of Hebraic thinking, or history in general. Yeshua was Jew first...not a Gentile. He never broke G-d's laws. Gentiles over time have rewritten the over the basic concepts to fit their view. The early Believers were (G-d's) law abiding.

I do suggest trying David Stern's translation "The Complete Jewish Bible". It sheds some light on how far off some parts of the NIV (as well as other translations) have strayed from the original intent. Sha'ul (Paul) is often misunderstood by Churches in this country.

Also then take a look at the Roman law at that time vs ours. The Romans started out as a Republic, morphed to a Democracy, then an Oligarchy. The USA is on the same path. We started as a Republic and have morphed into a Democracy. Our original Constitution protects us. Common law does as well I think (I'm not a lawyer though). I could be wrong, but perhaps Paul's principles could be likened to sumbitting to the Constitution...which was written for common law, or G-d's law. In the years since it was written by our Founders it has been misinterpreted greatly (much like the original Scriptures btw).

Food for thought: Before property taxes and social security, one in this country could live as a free person. After these came into affect, most (or maybe all) are subjects (or slaves) to the government...much like Romans in their day. You may think you own your car or home, but if you have paid it off and the govt can tax you on it every year, year after year...do you really own it...no. You are in essence leasing it. It is the big lie of our day. That's not what our founders intended for themselves or future generations. One should be free to pay off his/her own home, budget/save accordingly and live off that amount in retirement without fear of government seizure due to assessments and new laws to steal their hard-earned wealth. This is where a VAT tax or the like is much more fair. We should be taxing on goods and services, not land yearly (not opposed to a 1x at purchase so much though).

Perhaps the Romans also took a stand on their foundational laws vs what it had been bastardized into, and maybe some of the Scriptures give us a peak into why the Sha'ul and others took a stand and were jailed for their faith. If they started as a Republic, most likely they were not disobeying the supreme law of the land (which was being ignored).

 

[Perry]

I Corinthians 7:1-8

1
1 2 3 Now in regard to the matters about which you wrote: "It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman,"
2
but because of cases of immorality every man should have his own wife, and every woman her own husband.
3
The husband should fulfill his duty toward his wife, and likewise the wife toward her husband.
4
A wife does not have authority over her own body, but rather her husband, and similarly a husband does not have authority over his own body, but rather his wife.
5
Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control.
6
This I say by way of concession, 4 however, not as a command.
7
Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am, but each has a particular gift from God, 5 one of one kind and one of another.
8
6 Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do,
9
but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire.

EDIT: Also I Corinthians 7:32-35

I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord.
33
But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,
34
and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
35
I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction

So it does not say we shouldn't get married. Rather Paul is telling us who should and who should not marry. Furthermore I Corinthians 7:9 says that if we are afraid we will sin that we should get married.