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Police Secretly Planting GPS Devices On Cars

DamianTV

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Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
20,667
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/12/AR2008081203275.html?hpid=topnews

Across the country, police are using GPS devices to snare thieves, drug dealers, sexual predators and killers, often without a warrant or court order. Privacy advocates said tracking suspects electronically constitutes illegal search and seizure, violating Fourth Amendment rights of protection against unreasonable searches and seizures, and is another step toward George Orwell's Big Brother society. Law enforcement officials, when they discuss the issue at all, said GPS is essentially the same as having an officer trail someone, just cheaper and more accurate.

So in response to another hot thread at this time, Libertarians should stop insulting cops, let me ask this, with behavior like this from cops and judges, why should we stop insulting cops? And what exactly is the problem with cops getting warrants to do this? If warrants were being obtained, I wouldnt be saying a damn thing, well mabye more about the laws themselves but definitely not about the behavior of the cops.
 
That's pretty messed up. It's definitely way different from merely trailing someone for one very critical reason:

As the police themselves mentioned, trailing suspects costs time and money. That's a good thing, because it means they can only afford to trail real suspects. However, because it's so cheap and easy to track people using GPS, combined police agencies can feasibly track every single person in America at all times without any semblance of probable cause or oversight...and all of this can be done without anyone's knowledge. That's something entirely different from "law enforcement," and in fact, it's breaking some very damn important laws and violating some very basic rights.

GPS trackers and other technology can be useful tools for investigating serious criminals, but their net impact on society depends entirely on whether they're only used after a warrant has been issued based on probable cause...otherwise, these tools will merely aid the growing police state in keeping track of all the farm animal citizens. If these methods are used without warrants or even grow to be used on everyone, they'll no longer even slightly resemble "upholding the law" - rather, they'll cause greater aggregate violations of law and basic rights than all ordinary crime combined.

Anyone know what these devices look like or where they're ordinarily placed? If they start to cover each and every person (or perhaps just "undesirable segments of society,"), that'd be good information to have.
 
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/agree

Im sure pretty soon they will just want to track everything everyone does period. Total and complete 1984. The funny thing about that is they dont consider one golden rule - "The quality of a policed society is judged not on how effective at catching criminals a police force is but rather how well the society performs without the presence of the police at all."
 
So in response to another hot thread at this time, Libertarians should stop insulting cops, let me ask this, with behavior like this from cops and judges, why should we stop insulting cops?

Because it will do nothing to overturn the problem. What it will do is cause grownups to think those insulting cops are little more than juvenile delinquents and will not listen to what they have to say. Maybe taking the steps to get these things overturned that you think are horrible, would be a better approach. To do that, you're going to have to get other people on your side and insulting cops is not going to get you there.
 
/agree

Im sure pretty soon they will just want to track everything everyone does period. Total and complete 1984. The funny thing about that is they dont consider one golden rule - "The quality of a policed society is judged not on how effective at catching criminals a police force is but rather how well the society performs without the presence of the police at all."

Nice observation.

" People sleep peaceably at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

___ George Orwell
 
Because it will do nothing to overturn the problem. What it will do is cause grownups to think those insulting cops are little more than juvenile delinquents and will not listen to what they have to say. Maybe taking the steps to get these things overturned that you think are horrible, would be a better approach. To do that, you're going to have to get other people on your side and insulting cops is not going to get you there.

To SERVE and protect.

Since when is a cop societies moral arbiter?

Usually in dictatorial fascist states.
 
Well, can't two play at that game? Suppose we put trackers on the police cars. Then place the activities on the internet so everybody knows where they are at all times. Just make sure you hide the device well enough or you will lose it.
 
Well, can't two play at that game? Suppose we put trackers on the police cars. Then place the activities on the internet so everybody knows where they are at all times. Just make sure you hide the device well enough or you will lose it.

You beat me to it! Be sure your GPS map on the website has all the local donut shops and titty bars clearly marked!
 
Everyone needs one of these

GPS Jammer

gmc07fy7.jpg
 
GPS Jammer

gmc07fy7.jpg

Everyone who has a cell phone made since about '94 or '95 needs one of those. Your cell phone will tell them where you are on demand. Never mind your car. And my '93 model Nokia is trying to get old and die on me! :mad:
 
Everyone who has a cell phone made since about '94 or '95 needs one of those. Your cell phone will tell them where you are on demand. Never mind your car. And my '93 model Nokia is trying to get old and die on me! :mad:

I have an old analog cell phone I can't use anymore because they told me everything went digital. Sad too because I kept really good care of that old phone.
 
/agree

Im sure pretty soon they will just want to track everything everyone does period. Total and complete 1984. The funny thing about that is they dont consider one golden rule - "The quality of a policed society is judged not on how effective at catching criminals a police force is but rather how well the society performs without the presence of the police at all."

True. Its like good parenting - you want the kids to act properly when you are not around, not for them to act that way in fear that you might be watching.
 
I can understand people's aversion to this, and it's definitely bad policy, but it does not violate the 4th Amendment. It is neither a search nor a seizure.
 
I can understand people's aversion to this, and it's definitely bad policy, but it does not violate the 4th Amendment. It is neither a search nor a seizure.

By that logic, I should be able to stick a gps tracking device up your ass.
 
.... digging around trying to find that old article about the scientist who showed that each car has it's own electronic "fingerprint" and so the movement of individual cars can be tracked by using small receivers in or near the road without the need to tag the cars with GPS devices... and that was years ago.
 
I can understand people's aversion to this, and it's definitely bad policy, but it does not violate the 4th Amendment. It is neither a search nor a seizure.

Technically speaking, I could argue that it does violate the Fourth:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

You could make a strong case that the government planting something foreign onto a citizen's property falls into the same category as searches and seizures, although I admit it's not explicitly included in the wording (in any case, it constitutes tampering with private property without a warrant). It does seem implicit though, which brings to mind the Ninth Amendment. After all, one of the reasons the Fourth Amendment exists is to prevent cops from planting evidence and then "finding" it. It seems a bit absurd to me to consider only the "finding" of evidence a violation of rights, and not the act of planting of foreign objects on private property itself. Illegally planting a GPS tracker to get evidence on a person's position and moving patterns is very much akin to planting a camera to get evidence on a person's actions - and because evidence later found on such a camera would in fact be considered an illegal search and seizure, I believe the same principle applies when police are illegally obtaining evidence on a person's position and movements by planting a tracker.

The problem is that it's not enough to say that illegally obtained evidence cannot be used in court (and the Fourth Amendment does not in fact limit itself to saying that). Sure, that helps, but that's not the end of the story...cops very often obtain evidence on a person through an illegal search and seizure, but fully knowing they can't directly use it in court, they'll go ahead and use the illegal evidence as a lead to find other supposedly "legal" evidence that can be used in court. However, the Fourth Amendment does not solely protect against illegally obtained evidence being used in court; it is meant to protect against cops illegally searching and seizing whatsoever! Because of that, any of the fruits of those searches and seizures, whether direct or indirect, are equally illegal. Of course, it's not always easy to prove in all cases, but it seems like a no-brainer to me that cops cannot legally plant a GPS tracker without a warrant.

If someone is illegally tampering with my car to keep track of (spy on) my person and my property, that could be considered a never-ending search of me and my property, even though the search does not go inside of my car or inside of my body with a cavity search. Besides, putting a tracking device on someone's car, especially without their knowledge, is an obvious violation of property rights...especially considering that violation is being used for the purpose of espionage.

The ironic thing is, when cops use illegal tactics like this, they're breaking much more serious laws and becoming much more serious criminals than a lot of the people they're going after. It seems absurd to me that so people always side with police over "criminals" (even entirely nonviolent drug offenders) and give the police the benefit of the doubt, even when the police are criminals...and quite frankly, I believe that the more powerful you are compared to your victims (such as the government committing crimes against individuals), the greater and more heinous your crime should be considered.
 
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