PJB: America was the best place for blacks

[Mesogen]

What is Pat Buchanan smoking?

Honestly, the US hasn't been the WORST country for blacks, but it's also certainly not the BEST.

http://buchanan.org/blog/?p=969

First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known.

Wright ought to go down on his knees and thank God he is an American.

WOW! Never mind Jim Crow, lynchings, burning crosses and the rest. Black people should get down on their knees and thank God they live in America.

We hear the grievances. Where is the gratitude?

If I kidnap your children, then buy you some groceries, shouldn't you be grateful?

Is white America really responsible for the fact that the crime and incarceration rates for African-Americans are seven times those of white America? Is it really white America’s fault that illegitimacy in the African-American community has hit 70 percent and the black dropout rate from high schools in some cities has reached 50 percent?

Where is "White America"? What is "White America"? Is that the country you wished you could live in Pat?

 

[tod evans]

why waste cyber ink on the black-red-white-green "i`m different from you so i should have special treatment" discussion?
what`s to be gained?

 

[Mesogen]

My point is not that anyone should get special treatment.

I'm simply pointing out that Pat Buchanan must be smoking something really good to think that the US has been a great place for black people historically, which is what he's saying. He wants black people to be grateful.

 

[familydog]

Actually, 17th and 18th century pirate ships offered more equality then America ever did (for blacks)

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

What is so great about being peacefully enslaved?

My point is not that anyone should get special treatment.

I'm simply pointing out that Pat Buchanan must be smoking something really good to think that the US has been a great place for black people historically, which is what he's saying. He wants black people to be grateful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_Africa
The above link describes the existence of peaceful caste systems in and about Western Africa around the time of slavery in this nation. Most slaves in this nation had ancestors not from the master caste but from the slave caste portion.
So, I guess African Americans have a choice of choosing beteen a violent freedom in the United States; or, a choice of having peaceful enslavement in Africa.

 

[0zzy]

I think he is saying currently?

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

A little history is worst than no history

I think he is saying currently?

If people lived peacefully with each other in caste systems as the Hindus did with the Untouchbles, how can they avoid the necessity of violence to emancipate themselves from that relationship? Even modern Hindus ridicule Untouchables today for being disgusting people who eat rats when a lot of the times in the past rats were the only sustenance available for them to eat. Untouchables today still work low paying jobs because the only jobs that were available to them in the past were cleaning the toilets of the Hindus. I mean, isn't this a wonderful, rich history for the Untouchable? Shouldn't these Untouchables dress up and celebrate the rich Hindu culture while getting angry at the British for helping them understand the plight they were so blindly living in?

 

[MysteryGuest]

Wow. That next primary can't come soon enough, eh?

I love how some of the same people in the media who usually talk about how 'colorblind' they are seem so occupied with this story, even after it's been done to death. Paging Dr. Freud!

Look, is there a case that blacks today are better off than they would be without coming here? Sure. I think that making some sort of unilateral claim that all blacks are definitely all better off by being here, rather than W. Africa (or Europe for that matter, chances are, if we didn't capture slaves from the Guinea coast, other European powers would have been close behind) is a bit ridiculous. More importantly, 'better' really isn't all that objective. Who's to say some blacks wouldn't have been more fulfilled living in a small, agricultural tribe in Africa? Or in England or France, or Portugal? Do the benefits of blacks in America outweigh the pain and misery and loss of freedom of the original slaves themselves? Who's in a position to make that decision for everybody? My opinion is that the most important 'good' in all of human existence is the right of self-determination. Period. Slavery didn't give that to anyone, nor did the rigid caste systems of some African tribes. Ultimately, though, I'd stick with the caste system. At least there, I could make the decision myself whether or not to take the risks of going against it. Being taken somewhere against my will in chains affords me less opportunity to do that. I don't think that answers the question because ultimately, America, or any other group of people is far too complex to either Damn or deify.

I love the struggle over this issue. Fascinating.

 

[Truth Warrior]

America would be a much better and different country if slavery had never happened here. Thank the Brits for the slavery legacy.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

It is amazing how little we know about the slavery caste system in Africa

Wow. That next primary can't come soon enough, eh?

I love how some of the same people in the media who usually talk about how 'colorblind' they are seem so occupied with this story, even after it's been done to death. Paging Dr. Freud!

Look, is there a case that blacks today are better off than they would be without coming here? Sure. I think that making some sort of unilateral claim that all blacks are definitely all better off by being here, rather than W. Africa (or Europe for that matter, chances are, if we didn't capture slaves from the Guinea coast, other European powers would have been close behind) is a bit ridiculous. More importantly, 'better' really isn't all that objective. Who's to say some blacks wouldn't have been more fulfilled living in a small, agricultural tribe in Africa? Or in England or France, or Portugal? Do the benefits of blacks in America outweigh the pain and misery and loss of freedom of the original slaves themselves? Who's in a position to make that decision for everybody? My opinion is that the most important 'good' in all of human existence is the right of self-determination. Period. Slavery didn't give that to anyone, nor did the rigid caste systems of some African tribes. Ultimately, though, I'd stick with the caste system. At least there, I could make the decision myself whether or not to take the risks of going against it. Being taken somewhere against my will in chains affords me less opportunity to do that. I don't think that answers the question because ultimately, America, or any other group of people is far too complex to either Damn or deify.

I love the struggle over this issue. Fascinating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade
Yes. If the slaves weren't sold as property to the New World by other African tribes, then they were stolen. Stealing slaves rather than purchasing them was considered a criminal act. The point is that the Africans were already property before they were sold. Although the many caste systems were quite comfortable with this lifestyle of bondage, different caste systems would have tribal wars where the losing tribe members would be held in factory like processing plants to be shipped to foreign nations.
I remember reading that Jews from Denmark and Portugal were greatly responsible for most slaves transported to the New World. In other words, it wasn't like white people just rode around the plains on horses rounding up primitive African natives like zebras. Doesn't that border on racism?
The market for buying slaves used to be so lucrative in fact that 12 African souls could be purchased from the master African tribe for the price of a single horse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_Africa
Here is this link again in case you missed the significance of the caste system. Isn't it amazing that people in this nation would think nothing of celebrating the same master culture over in Africa that enslaved them until they thought so little of them that they were later sold into oblivion for the price of a horse? If you are worth less than a horse, do you really have a culture? Do you even own your own soul?

 

[nate895]

He is right if talking about best, good isn't necessarily the case. Other slave societies had a young death rate of above 50%. Ours was about the same as the normal population. Back in Africa, most would be dying or fighting civil wars.

 

[constituent]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade
Yes. If the slaves weren't sold as property to the New World by other African tribes, then they were stolen. Stealing slaves rather than purchasing them was considered a criminal act. The point is that the Africans were already property before they were sold. Although the many caste systems were quite comfortable with this lifestyle of bondage, different caste systems would have tribal wars where the losing tribe members would be held in factory like processing plants to be shipped to foreign nations.
I remember reading that Jews from Denmark and Portugal were greatly responsible for most slaves transported to the New World. In other words, it wasn't like white people just rode around the plains on horses rounding up primitive African natives like zebras. Doesn't that border on racism?
The market for buying slaves used to be so lucrative in fact that 12 African souls could be purchased from the master African tribe for the price of a single horse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_Africa
Here is this link again in case you missed the significance of the caste system. Isn't it amazing that people in this nation would think nothing of celebrating the same master culture over in Africa that enslaved them until they thought so little of them that they were later sold into oblivion for the price of a horse? If you are worth less than a horse, do you really have a culture? Do you even own your own soul?

nailed it.

i think in figure skating they have a name for that move (your post was that good).

i can't say that i've read about jews from denmark and portugal being responsible for the slave trade.... are you sure about that?

..and in particular....

were citizens of denmark and portugal (regardless of religious affiliation) perhaps
the most active in the shipping industries at the time? i think that might go a
long way in explaining it.... maybe not though, i don't know..


that said... great post!

 

[MysteryGuest]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade
Yes. If the slaves weren't sold as property to the New World by other African tribes, then they were stolen. Stealing slaves rather than purchasing them was considered a criminal act. The point is that the Africans were already property before they were sold. Although the many caste systems were quite comfortable with this lifestyle of bondage, different caste systems would have tribal wars where the losing tribe members would be held in factory like processing plants to be shipped to foreign nations.
I remember reading that Jews from Denmark and Portugal were greatly responsible for most slaves transported to the New World. In other words, it wasn't like white people just rode around the plains on horses rounding up primitive African natives like zebras. Doesn't that border on racism?
The market for buying slaves used to be so lucrative in fact that 12 African souls could be purchased from the master African tribe for the price of a single horse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_Africa
Here is this link again in case you missed the significance of the caste system. Isn't it amazing that people in this nation would think nothing of celebrating the same master culture over in Africa that enslaved them until they thought so little of them that they were later sold into oblivion for the price of a horse? If you are worth less than a horse, do you really have a culture? Do you even own your own soul?

Good post, Uncle. I can see where my argument was two-dimensional and didn't take in account the prior property issue. My bad. :o And I agree with you totally about the hardships and slavery of the African caste systems, especially Mande, who based their caste system on the type of work you were allowed to do (greatly diminishing one's ability to break out of a lower caste.)

On the being taken away in chains comment, I didn't mean to imply stolen away in the sense of being a free person kidnapped from the village in the middle of the night. (Although those sorts of raids did happen, more often, slaves were bartered by local kingdoms and tribes). What I was getting at was that given the choices between being a slave in America and being a slave in my part of Africa, I would choose the latter because my chances of subverting it might be higher. I wasn't arguing for the 'goodness' of peaceful slavery, rather, the power it had over me versus my options for escaping it. There were several examples of African slaves who were able to move throughout the caste systems using a variety of methods (see Slavery in Africa)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_slave_trade

and given that I might have a better understanding of the land, various cultural norms, languages, trading routes. I might have a better chance of communicating with like minded individuals, if I could find any, that might help me on my journey. In fact, as stated in the article, some African slaves were able to own property and travel freely, something that was not always the case in N. America. It's true that slavery in America would offer some benefits. (Nate's comment about mortality rates is a good point), but if I had to weigh them, I'd stick with the devil I know. Of course, no one could promise that all of these advantages would be available, or that freedom would be ultimately attained, I'm just saying that it's the situation I'd rather struggle for freedom against. But my overall point is that 'better' in the context of several generations of a whole bunch of individuals with different values is a precarious judgement.

The last part about the the ownership of the soul is an interesting bit, though. Indeed, no caste system is sustained through force alone, at some point or another, those at the low end of the system have to buy in and, as a result choose to become what society tells them they are. Of course, that choice is most likely made under social and military pressure, but if all humans have self-determination, then ultimately, the choice is yours. So what if you've chosen to be property? If you are sold are the seller or buyer wrong for having entered you into a transaction? That's a good question.

 

[dsentell]

"America was the best place for blacks"

Buchanan did not say America was the perfect place for blacks, nor has it been the perfect place for native Americans, whites or any other race I can think of.

When you compare the conditions for blacks in other parts of the world -- slavery, disease, starvation, etc., then I suspect that America may have been the best. But IMO, that goes for every race, not just blacks . . . .

America was the best place for all people . . .