Guns on a plane

[shrugged0106]

Hey, I know that I've read somewhere that the perceived danger from firing a gun on a plane is bunk. I think that it has something to do with using special ammo.

I need to trash a lib hater on this topic. Any good sources that prove Dr. Pauls point?

 

[DeadheadForPaul]

Stress that it's not for passengers but so that the airline can have a security member on board. The federal government only puts a federal marshall on a small percentage of flights. An airline could put at least 1 person on every flight to protect people

 

[Kuldebar]

There's low velocity bullets for such situations..but those truthdig folks are flailing around from one thing to another so I don't think points are sticking very well.

September 2, 2003, 9:45 a.m.
P.C. Air Security
When will our pilots be armed? By John R. Lott Jr.

The fears of having guns on planes are exaggerated. As Ron Hinderberger, director of aviation safety at Boeing, noted in testimony before the U.S. House of Representatives:

Boeing commercial service history contains cases where guns were fired on board in service airplanes, all of which landed safely. Commercial airplane structure is designed with sufficient strength, redundancy, and damage tolerance that a single or even multiple handgun holes would not result in loss of an aircraft. A bullet hole in the fuselage skin would have little effect on cabin pressurization. Aircraft are designed to withstand much larger impacts whether intentional or unintentional. For instance, on 14 occasions Boeing commercial airplanes have survived, and landed, after an in flight bomb blast.

 

[jonahtrainer]

Hey, I know that I've read somewhere that the perceived danger from firing a gun on a plane is bunk. I think that it has something to do with using special ammo.

I need to trash a lib hater on this topic. Any good sources that prove Dr. Pauls point?

Tell them guns on a plane are better than snakes!

 

[Gee]

Its irrelevant. Airlines would probably not allow guns on airplanes period, but they'd probably use other weapons which would render box cutters useless. Tasers, for example.

The bottom line is that it is the airline's property, and their decision. Consumers may choose which airline they feel protects them best, and the results would be superior to the enforced monopoly of the TSA.

 

[AnotherAmerican]

If the airlines are allowed to decide, then your friend will be able to choose whether to fly an armed-pilot airline or an unarmed-pilot airline. Is your friend pro-choice?

 

[robatsu]

Hey, I know that I've read somewhere that the perceived danger from firing a gun on a plane is bunk.

Well, how about all the combat airplanes that take a lot more damage from flak/missiles than a couple of revolver shots?

It's pretty tough to bring down aircraft with small arms fire. Otherwise, all the low buck insurgencies around the world would be doing it. That's why they all get stingers.

Take it to the bank - your average airliner is a pretty stout machine and it is preposterous that a couple of bullets would knock it out of the air.

 

[ronpaulitician]

Guns on planes - Yes or no

What happens if a bullet shoots a hole in the plane

Nothing. Forget what you've seen in the movies! A small hole in the plane won't make any difference to the safety or strength of the plane's structure, and air will bleed out through the hole so slowly that the normal cabin pressurization system will have no problem replenishing the air going through the slow leak.

An airplane can withstand a lot more damage than a few small bullet holes and still fly and land safely, as this Aloha Airlines 737 demonstrated.

The plane's pressurization system can probably cope with 50 or even 100 bullet holes and still maintain a breathable environment without needing the oxygen masks.

What if a bullet shoots out a window

It is possible that a bullet might shatter the toughened clear plastic in the plane's window. But, just like your double glazing at home, there are multiple layers of plastic in the window.

Even if all layers of the window broke, you're still not going to be sucked out the small window like in the movies. Yes, this large hole would probably depressurize the plane - over a period of some minutes - but that is what the overhead oxygen masks are for.

What if a bullet damages a vital control

This is very unlikely, and even if it did occur, most of the truly vital controls on a plane have double or triple redundancy. That means that one of the control systems could fail, and there would still be one or two backup systems to take over and ensure the continued safe operation of the plane.

And, remember - the air marshal is using the special frangible bullets, that won't penetrate through the control conduit anyway.

Ask Captain Lim

4. Will a gunshot depressurize the airplane cabin?

Hello Capt Lim, Could you please resolve an after dinner discussion on the effects of firearm discharge in a pressurized commercial aircraft - assuming that the hull is penetrated?

One point of view is that quite rapid depressurization could occur, depending on the size of the hole, requiring oxygen and descent to 10000ft. The James Bond viewers believe that the aircraft would disintegrate.
The effects of firearm discharge in a pressurized commercial aircraft is dependent on the size of hole caused by the bullet. If the hole is clean and of the size of your finger, it would not caused a rapid depressurization.

Let me discuss this scenario in the context of a Boeing 777. (Other pressurized aircraft are almost similar). Inside this aircraft, there are already two existing 'holes' for regulating the cabin pressurization. They are called the outflow valves, one located in the front and the other is at the aft belly. Their function is to modulate and maintain a desired cabin pressure of around 8.5 psi (pounds per square inch), and it varies with the aircraft altitude. This operation is performed automatically.

It is never possible to fully seal the aircraft doors and hence there are very minute spaces where some pressurized air may already be leaking out. They are hardly noticeable. At the same time, the interior of the airplane is always being pressurized and recharged by a constant flow of pneumatic or bleed air from the engines.

If a gunshot creates a clean hole through the skin, it is not going to be disastrous because air will just whistle out of the hole. The outflow valves will automatically response to this sudden loss of air by closing the valves a little to compensate for the air leak.

My estimate is that it would probably take quite sometime to fully depressurize the aircraft cabin. It only takes about less than 5 minutes to carry out an emergency descent from, say 35,000 to 10,000 feet assuming the aircraft is descending at about 5000 feet per minute.

If the size of the hole of the firearm discharge is big then it may depressurize quite rapidly. Think of the aircraft cabin as if it is a balloon. The bigger the hole, the faster the air would leak out. The hole with a size of a finger will not have any major or significant effect on a big commercial aircraft.

What is more worrying is that, a gun shot hitting the electrical cables, hydraulic lines or control cables may cause some headaches, but not altogether critical because the aircraft has many backup systems. Even that, it is quite remote because such vital cables or lines are generally well protected and are securely located away from possible damage.

I doubt this kind of info will convince doubters unless it comes straight from the airline industry itself, but at that point, you may want to turn the tables on them, and ask the doubters to tell you exactly why guns on planes are a bad idea.

 

[Elwar]

Mythbusters tested it and all the bullet did was put a hole in the wall...no huge explosion, or tearing up of the plane.

 

[Marshall]

The mythbusters did an episode where they tried to explosively decompress a passenger jet with a 9mm pistol shot. They fired once into the wall and once into a window with negligible effect, debunking to a degree to popular hollywood stance that if you shoot a plane anywhere half of the passengers are going to be sucked out a gaping hole. Probably not the best evidence to use in an argument, but hey, it was a good watch.

 

[shrugged0106]

awesome stuf from all of you!! TY!!

 

[dspectre]

If you want another example, more just common sense, think of World War 2. B-17s were hit by flak and survived many times(flak is far more damaging then a tiny hole).

Planes in many different wars have been hit by bullets and made it out ok. Some of the greatest pilots have been hit multiple times and survived.

 

[Kuldebar]

If you want another example, more just common sense, think of World War 2. B-17s were hit by flak and survived many times(flak is far more damaging then a tiny hole).

Planes in many different wars have been hit by bullets and made it out ok. Some of the greatest pilots have been hit multiple times and survived.

You are correct, but remember that WW2 era planes didn't have pressurized cabins. But, even with pressurized cabins, according to the Boeing expert:

A bullet hole in the fuselage skin would have little effect on cabin pressurization. Aircraft are designed to withstand much larger impacts whether intentional or unintentional. For instance, on 14 occasions Boeing commercial airplanes have survived, and landed, after an in flight bomb blast.

 

[mconder]

It's very doubtful a low velocity round from a .45 would even penetrate a plane. It would be cool if MythBusters picked this up and tried it out.

 

[Bradley in DC]

Isn't that the name of a new movie coming out with Samuel L. Jackson? (sorry)

 

[tmg19103]

B-17's were not pressurized, but it is bunk even with a pressurized jet at 30,000 feet.

Also, I hear some left wing yahoo's decrying RP's 2nd Amendment - 9/11 statement. The talking point is not that RP was saying passengers should be armed (though RP has stated he has no prob with that if the airlines alllowed it, but that is a little radical for many in the general public).

The talking point is that our bloated and inept federal government did not allow the pilots (many if not most of whom are armed forces veterans) to be armed. Israel has armed their pilots for decades, and how many hijackings have they had? That is the talking point.

 

[Kuldebar]

B-17's were not pressurized, but it is bunk even with a pressurized jet at 30,000 feet.

Also, I hear some left wing yahoo's decrying RP's 2nd Amendment - 9/11 statement. The talking point is not that RP was saying passengers should be armed (though RP has stated he has no prob with that if the airlines alllowed it, but that is a little radical for many in the general public).

The talking point is that our bloated and inept federal government did not allow the pilots (many if not most of whom are armed forces veterans) to be armed. Israel has armed their pilots for decades, and how many hijackings have they had? That is the talking point.

Yeah, I agree. Just like at Google when he visited, Paul stressed that property owners should decide what they will allow or won't allow on their property.

Also, if private banks use armed guards to protect out fiat currency, why not have armed guards or pilots protect their passengers on airplanes?

 

[angelatc]

If you want another example, more just common sense, think of World War 2. B-17s were hit by flak and survived many times(flak is far more damaging then a tiny hole).

Planes in many different wars have been hit by bullets and made it out ok. Some of the greatest pilots have been hit multiple times and survived.

I'm not a plane person, so don't make (much) fun if me, but don't those planes usually have masks over the pilot's face to keep him from fainting if the plane depressurizes?

 

[angelatc]

Hey, I know that I've read somewhere that the perceived danger from firing a gun on a plane is bunk. I think that it has something to do with using special ammo.

I need to trash a lib hater on this topic. Any good sources that prove Dr. Pauls point?

I'm over there too, ya know!

 

[dspectre]

Isn't that the name of a new movie coming out with Samuel L. Jackson? (sorry)

I was thinking the same thing