Bob Barr voted for the PATRIOT Act!

[freedom-maniac]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Barr

He only voted for the Patriot Act after his amendments adding "sunset clauses" were added to the final bill.

 

[acptulsa]

No wonder he's not running for the Constitution Party. Is this what the LP has come to?

 

[Aratus]

acptulsa
and people...

i shall redo my poll about the
"heart and soul" of the Libertarian Party.

Kade did have a perceptive comment in it,
which was quite an aptly terse gem!!!

 

[crazyfingers]

Well it would've passed with or without him, at least he had the good sense to force the inclusion of a "sunset" clause.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Well it would've passed with or without him, at least he had the good sense to force the inclusion of a "sunset" clause.

what is a sunset clause?

Also, wasnt congress given pretty much no time at all to even read the patriot act before voting?

if i were a congressman i would've demanded more time to read it.

 

[ThePieSwindler]

Bob Barr was also a very, very different man prior to 2003. He somehow had a conversion, became discusted with the Republican party, and gave up that power and alot of political clout to join the LP. He is now a vigorous opponent of any surveillance and anti-privacy measures, and even lobbies for medical marijuana groups, when he used to be one of the biggest drug warriors around.

He is very genuine in his conversion too, and readily admits how wrong he used to be. I fail to see the problem here.

 

[acptulsa]

Clay, a sunset clause is basically an expiration date. It requires that the law be re-ratified to continue in effect.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Clay, a sunset clause is basically an expiration date. It requires that the law be re-ratified to continue in effect.

cool thanks.

So each congressman can put his own sunset clause at a time of his choice on each vote he makes if he chooses?

 

[crazyfingers]

what is a sunset clause?

Also, wasnt congress given pretty much no time at all to even read the patriot act before voting?

if i were a congressman i would've demanded more time to read it.

It means the bill comes up once every couple of years for "reauthorization". While I doubt it'll ever be overturned, this at least keeps it from becoming permanent law and allows Congress the chance to get rid of the more onerous provisions.

I'm not sure how it works, but I highly doubt a single Congressman can delay the vote on a bill (unless he or she is the Speaker of the House, maybe?). I'm sure RP would've stepped up if he had the ability to, though.

 

[acptulsa]

cool thanks.

So each congressman can put his own sunset clause at a time of his choice on each vote he makes if he chooses?

No. Apparently Barr raised the issue and raised a stink for it. Dr. Paul, meanwhile, was trying to put the whole thing to bed, not just give it an expiration date.

 

[Bradley in DC]

It is not well understood, but the privacy community asked Rep. Barr to vote for the USA PATRIOT Act. We NEEDED him to vote for it. Not to get too inside baseball, but Barr was (and remains) a huge ally to us.

Only Members who voted for the bill would be chosen to be on the conference where the real action happened behind closed doors (ostensibly when they would only reconcile differences between the House and Senate passed versions of the bill, but in reality, they rewrote the whole thing).

 

[Galileo Galilei]

No wonder he's not running for the Constitution Party. Is this what the LP has come to?

Bob Barr has seen the light and changed his mind on these things. He would not have joined the Libertarian Party otherwise.

He was persuaded to change his mind based on logical arguments made ny Libertarians.

Have you no confidence in the power of Libertarian persuasion?

 

[acptulsa]

Have you no confidence in the power of Libertarian persuasion?

Sure--worked for me. Unfortunately, I have also seen plenty of evidence of the power of monetary persuasion, and the temptation to give the people what they think they want at the moment.

 

[freedom-maniac]

It is not well understood, but the privacy community asked Rep. Barr to vote for the USA PATRIOT Act. We NEEDED him to vote for it. Not to get too inside baseball, but Barr was (and remains) a huge ally to us.

Only Members who voted for the bill would be chosen to be on the conference where the real action happened behind closed doors (ostensibly when they would only reconcile differences between the House and Senate passed versions of the bill, but in reality, they rewrote the whole thing).

Not to be at all rude, but if I may be so inclined to ask, how exactly do you know this? If that is why Barr voted for it, I have great respect for him. How many other people do we have "on the inside" like that?

 

[Caulfield]

No. Apparently Barr raised the issue and raised a stink for it. Dr. Paul, meanwhile, was trying to put the whole thing to bed, not just give it an expiration date.

And Paul didn't block it from becoming law, while at least Barr blocked it from becoming permanent.

In my eyes, Barr is a hero for this.

 

[Bradley in DC]

Bob Barr is now a vigorous opponent of any surveillance and anti-privacy measures.

He was in Congress too. Used to work closely with the ACLU even on these issues even back then.

 

[Bradley in DC]

Not to be at all rude, but if I may be so inclined to ask, how exactly do you know this? If that is why Barr voted for it, I have great respect for him. How many other people do we have "on the inside" like that?

Not rude at all. I am in in the privacy public policy community here and was VERY active in the debate on what became the USA PATRIOT Act--I testified before the House Judiciary Committee briefing on it, Senate on National ID, etc. These are my "peeps" as it were. I was at the Free Congress Foundation at the time heading its Coalition for Constitutional Liberties.

Oh, and I'm not speaking for Barr nor do I know for certain that is why he voted for it, but I was familiar with the general context. This was the broad-based privacy coalition at the time:
http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/

Lori Cole (now Waters) then at Eagle Forum and I were the two main organizers of the non-socialist groups in it.

 

[Knightskye]

Well it would've passed with or without him, at least he had the good sense to force the inclusion of a "sunset" clause.

He can still show that he has logic and vote against it. Ron Paul served in the International Relations committee and offered an amendment to declare war, but then voted against it, because he didn't want to go to war.

http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2002/tst101402.htm
http://www.cfr.org/publication/13338/

You can have your cake and eat it too.

 

[brianewart]

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28960.html

Reason: Do you regret voting for the USA PATRIOT Act?

Bob Barr: I do. I was hoping at the time that it would not be used as a floor but as a ceiling. But it's been a taking-off point for expanded authority in a number of areas. Perhaps most important is the fact that the administration seems to be pushing its application as broadly as it can in nonterrorism cases. And despite the assurances by the administration that Section 215, which relates to obtaining records from libraries and other repositories, is not being used, the fact is it is being used.

It has become much more problematic because it's part of a growing list of privacy-invasive government programs, such as TIA [Terrorism Information Awareness]. They changed the name [from Total Information Awareness] and John Poindexter has left the Defense Department, but I've seen nothing that indicates to me proof that TIA is absolutely dead with a stake driven through its heart and burned and its head cut off, which is how Steve Forbes used to describe what we needed to do with the IRS. So my presumption is that it in some form or fashion is continuing.

We have now the emergence of the CAPPS II system -- the airline passenger profiling system. We have, apparently, a number of state efforts that are being funded by the federal government, such as the one that just came to light called the Matrix system, down in Florida, where the feds are providing grant monies to state agencies to set up programs similar to TIA.